Feedback: Traits

Basically we're looking at Artists, Merchants, and Scientists working well as specialist slots, Priests possibly being too weak (depending where that free specialist ends up), Engineers and Spies being too strong.

Let's unpack some of this analysis. Artists work well as specialist slots because they allow you to pop borders quickly. This gives you a lot more flexibility when choosing city locations since you can access second ring resources almost immediately. It also lets you settle aggressively against AI opponents without fear of becoming overwhelmed by foreign culture. Engineers and Spies are too strong as specialist slots because they give rise to very powerful Great People. Spy yields also cannot be matched except by other Spies. Basically, these specialists are not intended for the early game. Merchants and Scientists are decent as specialist slots. Their yields are not impressive (0 food, 0 production, 3 commerce is inferior to almost any improved tile) but early Great Merchants or Scientists are an interesting alternative to Great Prophets. Priests are poor specialist slots because they have the lowest yield and are available at Ceremonial Burial anyway.

You'd need to grow your other cities a bit before filling that specialist slot is feasible. Cemeteries are pretty powerful buildings for the era, and make Ceremonial Burial the most powerful starting tech. I don't think it hurts to have either of these weakened so long as we adjust the affected traits accordingly, Spiritual in particular.

Now, here's the thing. Specialists are generally not worth hiring unless you intend to retain them until they produce a Great Person. On their own, their yields are terrible. (Even a mighty Engineer is equivalent to an unimproved plain hill.) That's what makes a free specialist from Cemeteries so powerful: they produce GPP for free. I agree that they are probably too strong for the Ancient Era. But moving the free specialist to the Palace will just mean that 90% of your Great People will be born in your capital, when you consider that it's also your most likely candidate for Wonder construction. So here's my suggestion for the Cemetery:

Cemetery: +1:health:, 1 priest slot, +1:gp: (typeless)

If you want an early religion, you'll have to hire a priest specialist yourself. Otherwise the Cemetery will slowly accumulate GPP, which you can redeem for a different Great Person once you unlock the required specialist. A free specialist can be saved for a later building.

I'd still like Industrious to associate with engineers and Political to associate with spies, specialist or great, in some way though.

Espionage is surprisingly and frustratingly unmoddable compared to other systems in BTS. Pretty much nothing we can do that doesn't involve EP. I really want Political to have an espionage focus though. Not essential for Diplomatic where it's only meant to be a relatively minor bonus. Need to think of interesting espionage bonuses that won't kick in too early.

Because Great People have other uses that are usually more valuable or strategic, I'm not sure it would see much use if attached to another trait, unless it was strengthened considerably.

Together with the change to the Cemetery, I'd also replace specialist slots with targeted specialist bonuses. And instead of increasing the primary yield of specialists, I'd diversify, as follows:

Creative +1:hammers: per Artist, +2:hammers: per Great Artist
Enterprising +1:espionage: per Merchant, +3:espionage: per Great Merchant
Industrious +1:science: per Engineer, +3:science: per Great Engineer
Political +1:gold: per Spy, +3:gold: per Great Spy
Progressive +2:culture: per Scientist, +5:culture: per Great Scientist
Spiritual +1:food: per Priest, +2:food: per Great Prophet

That will encourage those particular leaders to hire those particular specialists and settle the corresponding Great People. It won't overload any one specialist, as bonus science on Scientists or bonus espionage on Spies might. (Even adding food to the priest will keep it in line with an unimproved riverside plains tile.) Ultimately, without free specialists from Cemeteries, bonus specialist slots aren't terribly interesting. Most specialists are available fairly soon, with Libraries and Theatres and Markets. And later you can have a limitless supply with the right civics. I'd save the specialist slots for UBs, which I definitely want to have a look at soon.

I'm still very tempted to leave Progressive with a free Great Scientist per era. It adds variety, makes thematic sense, and I don't think it's overpowered compared to a scientist slot. Build research at 100% is an alternative but I've already used the wealth and culture equivalents and would prefer to avoid it for variety's sake.

The problem with this is it opens a second stream of Great People, alongside GPP. I'd probably use those Great Scientists as follows:
Classical Era: settle in capital
Medieval Era: Golden Age
Renaissance Era: build University (probably also in capital)
Industrial Era: found Corporation
Modern Era: Golden Age (with other Great People)

Now, that doesn't sound too bad, except that I'd simultaneously use GPP to produce all the other Great People I might want, for religion, trade missions, infiltrations, and so forth. No other leader would have that option. And ultimately, I'd be discouraged from hiring Scientists, since I'll be getting Great Scientists for free anyway.

Something that is worth considering here perhaps is that many of the new and redesigned UUs have free promotions. I specifically avoided giving Combat I, Medic I, Commando and Sentry to UUs so that they wouldn't clash with traits.

Right, I haven't had the chance to look at all the new UUs yet, but I still think you can add free Flanking I and Drill I promotions to leader traits without issue. They're also entry-level promotions, and I expect most UUs have stronger bonuses than that. (If not, we can always tweak them.)

Anyway, work on a 2nd draft is underway, lots of new ideas and considerations to juggle. Keep your suggestions and criticism coming.

I'll hold off on a second draft of my own until I see yours. But I have been trying to come up with ideas for non-standard bonuses. Are any of these possible?

  • Free Buildings Upon City Founding, i.e. free Aqueduct in every city
  • Free Culture Upon City Founding, i.e. cities start with 15 culture
  • Bonus Culture Upon City Capture, i.e. 25% total city culture added on capture - If a city has 100 culture when captured, the conqueror receives 25 free culture, such that the city is 20% native (25/125) and 80% foreign (100/125)
  • Automatic State Religion Spread Upon City Capture
  • May Choose Great Person Type, i.e. When a GPP threshold is met, an event popup allows the player to choose which type of Great Person is born, from among the types possible
  • Permanent Peace with the Barbarians
  • Bonus Commerce Per Culture Threshold, i.e. 0 gold for Poor Culture, +1 gold for Fledgling Culture, +2 gold for Developing Culture, etc.
  • Bonus Units at Game Start, i.e. bonus spy
  • Other Players May Not Issue Demands
  • Double Movement on Roads

Also, we used to have "improvement costs refunded" as a trait bonus. Was there any particular reason it was cut?
 
Just what is so great about a cemetery that it can generate 1gpp which is what national wonders are generating.
Cemeteries don't deserve to be of same standard as wonders
 
Spy yields also cannot be matched except by other Spies.

Though it won't change he early game situation, I wonder if it's worth lowering the EP of Spy specialists and Great Spy specialists? We did reshuffle and lower EP of buildings a while back. BTS seems to value EP the same as culture, whereas I wonder if in HR it's aligned closer to wealth and research.

Not commenting on your other comments regarding Great People and specialists for the moment. May all change if I'm successful in changing the GPP system to something more like Civ5's.

I'd save the specialist slots for UBs, which I definitely want to have a look at soon.

Yeah, they need an overhaul badly. Was originally planning to look at them for 1.21 but 1.20's UU overhaul was much more time-consuming and complex than I anticipated so I decided to leave UBs till later.

Right, I haven't had the chance to look at all the new UUs yet, but I still think you can add free Flanking I and Drill I promotions to leader traits without issue. They're also entry-level promotions, and I expect most UUs have stronger bonuses than that. (If not, we can always tweak them.)

Looking through my list, most UUs that were given Drill or Flanking promotions were given both rank I & II, and always alongside another bonus.

I'll hold off on a second draft of my own until I see yours.

No need to hold off. I've been pretty busy and distracted these past few days, second draft still a way off. More ideas and suggestions would help rather than hinder. Though obviously everything GPP related is a bit up in the air at the moment.

  • Free Buildings Upon City Founding, i.e. free Aqueduct in every city
  • Free Culture Upon City Founding, i.e. cities start with 15 culture
  • Automatic State Religion Spread Upon City Capture
  • Bonus Units at Game Start, i.e. bonus spy

Easy to implement.

  • Bonus Culture Upon City Capture, i.e. 25% total city culture added on capture - If a city has 100 culture when captured, the conqueror receives 25 free culture, such that the city is 20% native (25/125) and 80% foreign (100/125)
  • Bonus Commerce Per Culture Threshold, i.e. 0 gold for Poor Culture, +1 gold for Fledgling Culture, +2 gold for Developing Culture, etc.

Probably doable, would need to check. Not sure how the latter would interact with culture flipping and such.

  • May Choose Great Person Type, i.e. When a GPP threshold is met, an event popup allows the player to choose which type of Great Person is born, from among the types possible

Might be possible, but potentially complicated. Not something I'd want to attempt for a trait.

  • Permanent Peace with the Barbarians

Uncertain.

  • Other Players May Not Issue Demands
  • Double Movement on Roads

Not possible.

Also, we used to have "improvement costs refunded" as a trait bonus. Was there any particular reason it was cut?

It was talked about but never implemented. Personally I think it's too trivial a bonus unless we were to increase or expand improvement/route costs and the whole 'refund immediately after purchase' concept feels tacky. What we did have was 'corporate founding costs refunded'. Turned out it was causing OOS errors in multiplayer, so I removed it.
 
Techs = Team
Anything to do with Team, is not suitable for player trait.

Having one player with that trait will apply its effect to whole team.
Having 10 players with that trait in same team has no effect as one player in whole team.

Anyway, there is a function to change movement directly in CyTeam, no need of a tech.

@Choice of GP when born
Anything with popup means it is only meant for humans.
A.I. will still be granted random one?
Then what is the purpose of a trait that gives additional benefit just for humans.
 
To get back to the original schema for 1.21 (before it got sidetracked into Great People and then into a general Buildings redesign); it just occurred to me that with the GPP pool separation, instead of some traits getting extra specialist slots or free Great People per era, it might be feasible to simply give them bonuses to generation of the appropriate type of :gp:.

This should even work with the more powerful GP types (such as Spies and Engineers) that have been excluded to date, because it wouldn't really kick in at all until they can recruit the appropriate specialists anyway.

The Philosophical trait would probably need a redesign, though.
 
To get back to the original schema for 1.21 (before it got sidetracked into Great People and then into a general Buildings redesign); it just occurred to me that with the GPP pool separation, instead of some traits getting extra specialist slots or free Great People per era, it might be feasible to simply give them bonuses to generation of the appropriate type of :gp:.

This should even work with the more powerful GP types (such as Spies and Engineers) that have been excluded to date, because it wouldn't really kick in at all until they can recruit the appropriate specialists anyway.

That's the plan! Haven't resumed working on traits for 1.21 yet, but I will shortly.

The Philosophical trait would probably need a redesign, though.

It's probably okay, but need to think about how it would interact with any trait that boosted a particular GPP type. Though dropping it to +50% :gp: would be better.
 
Longest gap ever between drafts, I suspect. Worth it though, since it lead to a complete overhaul of great people, buildings, national wonders, unique buildings, and more. Changes have been quite extensive, even in relation to the last draft, so I've not bothered highlighting each one this time.

Please let me know your thoughts. There's a few aspects I'm not completely happy with, but unless you guys spot any major problems or imbalances, I'll go ahead and get these implemented. Can be refined further in 1.22 and beyond.


Aggressive
• +100% wealth from pillaging and capturing cities
• Commando promotion for Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder units
• +1 happiness from Stadium

Charismatic
• -50% war weariness
• +1 experience from combat victory
• +2 happiness in every city

Creative
• +100% Great Artist emergence
• +2 commerce per culture level of city
• +50% World Wonder production

Defensive
• Cities start with Walls
• Improvements are protected from pillaging
• Medic I promotion for Melee, Archery, Gunpowder Units

Diplomatic
• +2 relations with other civilizations
• +100% Great Spy emergence
• +1 trade route in every city

Enterprising
• +100% Great Merchant emergence
• +50% commerce from trade routes
• +1 extra cargo space for Naval units

Expansive
• Cities start with 2 population
• 50% faster production of Settler, Colonist
• Sentry promotion for Recon, Naval units

Financial
• Always build wealth at a rate of 100%
• +1 wealth per specialist
• +1 Great Specialist of same type when founding a Corporation

Humane
• 50% longer Golden Ages
• +100% Great Doctor emergence
• +2 health in every city

Imperialist
• No resistance in captured cities
• Acquire rival research when capturing cities
• -50% hurry production cost

Industrious
• +100% Great Engineer emergence
• +1 production per Wonder in city
• 50% faster production of Worker, Labourer, Workboat

Judicial
• No anarchy
• +1 culture per specialist
• +1 happiness from Jail, Constabulary

Martial
• All Military civics available
• Cities start with Barracks
• Combat I promotion for Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder units

Organized
• -50% civic upkeep
• Improvements built 50% faster
• 100% faster production of Library

Philosophical
• +100% Great Scientist emergence
• 1 free specialist of same type when Great Person born
• 100% faster production of School

Political
• All Government civics available
• +1 espionage per specialist
• +50% National Wonder production

Progressive
• Always build research at a rate of 100%
• +1 research per specialist
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village

Spiritual
• +100% Great Prophet emergence
• Building State Religion's Great Temple starts a Golden Age
• State Religion spreads to cities when founded or conquered

Tactical
• +100% Great General emergence
• -50% cost to upgrade military units
• City Raider I promotion for Siege, Armoured units

Traditional
• 25% faster production for buildings already in capital
• Always build culture at a rate of 100%
• +3 happiness from Palace​


An important note regarding Spiritual: in 1.21 Great Temples will be built by Great Prophets, and Shrines will be constructed similar to national wonders instead.
 
Creative
• +100% Great Artist emergence
• +2 commerce per culture level of city
• +50% World Wonder production

I think the "Always build culture at a rate of 100%" might work better in place of the commerce bonus here than at Traditional.

Defensive
• Cities start with Walls
• Improvements are protected from pillaging
• Medic I promotion for Melee, Archery, Gunpowder Units

I'd prefer +100% production of Walls, Castles, Bunkers, and Bomb Shelters over the free Walls. Getting them before Construction also feels wrong.

Diplomatic
• +2 relations with other civilizations
• +100% Great Spy emergence
• +1 trade route in every city

Wasn't the +2 relations deemed too powerful?

Enterprising
• +100% Great Merchant emergence
• +50% commerce from trade routes
• +1 extra cargo space for Naval units

Did you solve the problem with the commerce bonus from trade routes not stacking with the civics that also give trade bonuses?

Imperialist
• No resistance in captured cities
• Acquire rival research when capturing cities
• -50% hurry production cost

Does the -50% hurry cost stack with Saint Vasily's? If so, additively or multiplied?

Industrious
• +100% Great Engineer emergence
• +1 production per Wonder in city
• 50% faster production of Worker, Labourer, Workboat

I dislike the production bonus for Wonders. It won't scale well with map size, and will encourage the further overconcentration of Wonders in even fewer cities (since a city with multiple Wonders will find it easier to build still more Wonders). Also, would it apply to captured Wonders?

Philosophical
• +100% Great Scientist emergence
• 1 free specialist of same type when Great Person born
• 100% faster production of School

I foresee problems with the free specialists, since they will be generating still more :gp: towards their type of Great Person, creating a compounding effect (unless that's your intent here). And again, will they be retained on city capture?

Tactical
• +100% Great General emergence
• -50% cost to upgrade military units
• City Raider I promotion for Siege, Armoured units

Shouldn't Melee units also get the free promotion?
 
I think the "Always build culture at a rate of 100%" might work better in place of the commerce bonus here than at Traditional.

I considered that, but I don't want there to be an 'essential' cultural victory trait.

Wasn't the +2 relations deemed too powerful?

It's strong, but not excessively so in my opinion. +1 is too weak though.

Did you solve the problem with the commerce bonus from trade routes not stacking with the civics that also give trade bonuses?

I think it's just a display issue. Haven't looked at it recently though.

Does the -50% hurry cost stack with Saint Vasily's? If so, additively or multiplied?

Pretty sure it's additive. Need to double check. It's currently -33% in 1.20.

I dislike the production bonus for Wonders. It won't scale well with map size, and will encourage the further overconcentration of Wonders in even fewer cities (since a city with multiple Wonders will find it easier to build still more Wonders). Also, would it apply to captured Wonders?

Yeah, this is the one I'm least happy with, for the reasons you describe. Faster production of Forge and Factory is an alternative, but was trying for something more interesting.

I foresee problems with the free specialists, since they will be generating still more :gp: towards their type of Great Person, creating a compounding effect (unless that's your intent here). And again, will they be retained on city capture?

That's my intent, more or less. Specialists are not retained on city capture.

Shouldn't Melee units also get the free promotion?

No, that promotion isn't meant to be a major bonus for the trait, and there are other traits that boost Melee units already. If Tactical is deemed too weak, I'd prefer to make unit upgrades cheaper or even free.
 
Imperialist
• No resistance in captured cities
• Acquire rival research when capturing cities
• -50% hurry production cost

How would this work? Acquire techs already known by the rival? Or acquire the lightbulbs already gathered and put them towards the tech you're currently working on? I presume the latter, otherwise it seems overpowered.
 
How would this work? Acquire techs already known by the rival? Or acquire the lightbulbs already gathered and put them towards the tech you're currently working on? I presume the latter, otherwise it seems overpowered.

If the rival has a technology that you don't have, but are able to research, you receive a percentage of progress towards it when you capture their city.
 
Philosophical
• +100% Great Scientist emergence
• 1 free specialist of same type when Great Person born
• 100% faster production of School

How about a one time bonus upon researching Philosophy? A free Great Person, Golden Age, tech, something.
 
The same argument could be made for accelerated production of a building you get free on late era starts.
 
A few changes from the last draft. Only major change is Industrious' wonder bonus being scrapped for a culture level bonus (similar to Creative). Everything's coded and tested now, so I'm moving on to other tasks. Feedback on balance still welcome though; never too late for tweaks and swaps, but prefer to save any major redesigns for after 1.21 now.

Industrious
• +100% Great Engineer emergence
• +1 production per culture level of city
• 50% faster production of Worker, Labourer, Workboat

Philosophical
• Always build research at a rate of 100%
• +1 Specialist of same type when Great Person born
• 100% faster production of School

Progressive
• +100% Great Scientist emergence
• +1 research per specialist
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village

Spiritual
• Cities start with State Religion
• +100% Great Prophet emergence
• Building Great Temple of State Religion starts a Golden Age​
 
Also, now would be a very good time to make suggestions regarding traits for existing leaders. Any swaps you think need making? Which leaders do you think would suit the new traits? Some examples to give you an idea of my design intent: Leonidas of Greece and Tokugawa of Japan will be Martial (both formerly Aggressive), Joao of Portugal and Wu of China will be Political (both formerly Diplomatic).
 
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