[Vanilla] Feeling frustrated about Deity -- any tips?

depner72

Chieftain
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Hi Everybody,
Here is my basic question: how do you deal with any feelings of frustrations that come from playing on Deity and seeing your opponents enter the information age, when you just barely secured iron with no horses in sight and finished researching catapults while being behind in well, everything? Obviously, people can beat the AI on deity, but what is the key to success? Early on, the AI rushed my a**. In response, I built hordes of archers to defend myself and pumped out settlers, but by the time I am ready to take out my opponents my swordsmen are attacking cities defended by mechanized infantry. Argh....
 
The basic answer is that "deity" is an abstract term, always was. You can't really cure your frustration here, because civfanatics forums strategy section got replaced by youtubers and twitch streamers. These new mediums transformed what was once well written and coherent exploration of the game mechanics into hundreds of hours of wasted video watch time.

Your best bet is going back to the time when some people invested actual effort into helping you get better at this game, thus the only two people I can actually recommend are https://www.youtube.com/c/civtrader6 (although terribly obsolete for GS, many principles stand) and peppermint butler on twitch as the best of the lot: https://www.twitch.tv/peppermint_butler

One of the trends seems to be playing Khmer on a highlands map, where the Khmer's holy sites basically take care of city food requirements, while hills and mountains both slow down AI movement and provide enough focused production to counter AI production bonuses for whatever victory type you're going for.
 
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I just watched some VODS by CivLifeR and PotatoMcWhiskey and I learned the game pretty quick. Was able to beat Immortal with ease. I'm bumping up to Deity soon. Good luck to you.
 
I regularly win on Deity, and one of the key messages that helped me a lot is that building stuff is not the only way to create them. You say in your post that you built lots of archers and settlers. That takes a lot of time, but there are other ways to get them, faith, gold, levy...
In some games I find that the only things I build are the few troops at the beginning, and the districts, but only until Reyna, Moksa or Hercules comes along. Otherwise I always trade hard almost everything I have and buy stuff.
 
It's for CIV3 :(
First - start with 2-3 wariors to explore and find oponents, tents for technology, after that granary. Limit research points to 1, and research what's next of what u already have for 40/50 turns or technology for UU. If u do not have - zero, and after gather from other civs - mathematics/Iron/writing
With explored map define 1-st RING city placement strategy - at same distanse from capital (3-5 calculated tiles) at least 5-6 cities. At big/huge map plan also second ring (7-9).
Trade tech to all AI, for money and workers also - at begining workers are very usefull. Upgrade used tilles near cities, starting with capital. Irrigate just resourses - cattle/wheat, other roads and mines. Do it at bunch of workers to do it in 1 turn (3 or 2 if your CIV is special faster worker). at begining 1 yours 1 AI worker.
Plan 4 turn settler factory, and 2 turn pop increase. Capital 5-7 pop. If not enough resourses - 3 settler turn at 6-7 pop.
Something like - archer/settler, warr/worker.
Build embacy and Investigate the biggest AI cities - 1 is enough.
Build 5-8 UU and rush nearest or the best AI with ALL of them+1-2 defence units. Or 10 warriors and upgrade to swards with gold from limited tech. Should have 400-500.
Golden age will help a lot in early war. build just baracks/war units.
fight till leader - build wonders - library the best. After capture AI capital build Forbiden palace there.
After 20 turn and at least 5-6 cuptured AI cities or till stop capture towns just 2-3 attacking units left - pease and start Republic and building cities - market, corthause. city pop till 12 in 1-st ring- join AI workers to city pop. If u have build great Library - zero research till republic from AI. Continue destroy weaker AI till education ...
This will happen till 80-100 turn and u should have 25-30 cities, at same tech level to AI, 4-5 wonders.
If u do not manage to do it - u are already lost. Leave the game and try again. I played just 3 times in later ages way back in tech and ones survive till space race loose.
U should do this in 3-5 hours.
Playing peacefully in deity/sid is imposible strategy for wining
 
The basic answer is that "deity" is an abstract term, always was. You can't really cure your frustration here, because civfanatics forums strategy section got replaced by youtubers and twitch streamers. These new mediums transformed what was once well written and coherent exploration of the game mechanics into hundreds of hours of wasted video watch time.

Your best bet is going back to the time when some people invested actual effort into helping you get better at this game

New here. I will assume that what you said here about the forums is accurate.

I am currently working on my fourth game and it is Babylon, Medium 8-Player Pangea with no extra mods, Monarch. I figured I would develop some confidence at the lower levels before adding game options.

Regarding the exploration and explanation of game mechanics, this information is nowhere to be found in the game manuals, either. Some of it, like food per population growth, I found online and it seems to be reliable. Some I can find by experimentation, but it is very tedious. The production is mostly transparent.

As an example for Culture, I might be working on Foreign Trade for 40c. The Inspiration is worth 40% of that, or 16c. I think if I have 5/40 towards FT and get the inspiration, then I have a total of 21/40c. If I get the inspiration at 30/40c, then it is completed, but I get no overflow - I have not yet developed an experiment to prove this. It would be nice if we simply had a tooltip to indicate that we are at 21/40c instead of just showing the number of turns to completion.

Maybe I will post a game for everybody and give my feedback so far based on less than a month of playing and 100-150 hours.
 
I recommend largely ignoring AI outputs. It is very normal for a basic player to be on 5-15 science and culture by turn 50 while the AI is on 60+. If you're reaching 40+ for these values by turn 100 you should be quite unafraid and a turn 250ish win will be likely.
What you will find is that the AI tends to plateau around the Industrial era with perhaps one or two outliers further ahead in the race.
The values I give here are considered by the community to be weak by the top level deity players but your play can be miles away in levels from theirs and you can still get consistent wins. Don't concern yourself with people who are getting 600 science on turn 107 or whatever, who get these absurdly early wins. Obviously these are very impressive numbers and if you are a top top player this can be done. But it is not necessary.

The key to success is land. If you are feeling squeezed at any point, you should strongly consider warfare. If on the other hand feel you have a lot of space to expand, you absolutely should take every opportunity to do so. More cities = more districts = more outputs = faster more reliable wins. Obviously there comes a point where this settling for higher outputs is a pointless endeavour, once you reach the later stages. At that point cities are settled purely for strategic resources, as staging areas for attacks or to chop out space projects.

If you want to increase your tempo, use builders to chop things and improve more tiles, do less things which are not essential for victory (eg try not to hard build granaries, water mills, barracks etc), and focus more on accruing gold and faith so that more things can be built per turn and instantly, build things in anticipation of other things so that those later things can be done faster (eg build a city near a big forest before you discover space projects so you can chop them out, get enough titles to faith or gold buy spaceports and place the governor 5 turns before needed)
 
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The key to success is land.
Also, the game rewards broad game knowledge.

If you must play against deity, then I recommend to figure out what map size, type, and conditions favor your chosen civilization and try balanced or legendary starts. Once you get the hang of a civilization, then you can select standard settings or map types and conditions that are hard for your chosen civilization. Try to give yourself some advantages to begin with.

For learning pacing, try a duel on separate continents (with and without barbarians). Try some games without city states so you can see the effects of their presence in a deity game.
 
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After playing a lot more, here are a few more tips:

First 2 cities should be settled for production and proximity. Forget those ideal campus placements. These two cities should have at least two workable 2–2 tiles in the first ring. Hunting for resources (except perhaps iron) or attempting to block (except if a really good chokepoint like 1-hex mountain pass) or coastal locations can be really dangerous on higher levels. The AI *loves* to snipe your empire if it has the chance. And barb galleys are a story for itself.

Build units. If you can manage it, skip workers (ties in well with first suggestion) and build more units. "Eureka for Mercenaries" (8 land units) is usually among top priorities, especially if the AI has access to heroes. 15 turns spent early on unit builds can save you a lot of misery and turn mismanagement later. It's better to prevent a defensive war than to fight it. It blocks crucial builds like eurekas when they become available.

Growth is usually luxury. Especially early growth. A 5-pop capital means nothing if you can barely scrounge 3 production per turn. Learned this the hard way. Growth means future higher yields, but treat it as a luxury.

Camps + Goddess of Hunt is absurdly powerful. With a good spawn and two 3-pop cities (realistic size without investing into growth), you can be easily looking at 10 food and 10 production per city.
 
Also, the game rewards broad game knowledge.

agreed. As someone currently making the jump to diety youve got to be on top of detail e.g technology/culture boosts and how to take advantage of them
 
Make sure to send a delegation and get open borders with everyone asap. Usually you can be friends with basically everyone and you won't need any military.

If you get attacked early, just take your beating and reload.
This is one area Ive been getting wrong Often the first civ I come accross takes an instant dislike to me and tears me a new one,I'll try this approach Danny thanks :)
 
Thanks Danny :) now Ptolmy Cleo is giving me sass while I grow an army to wipe her out
 
her 'i hear you eat a porridge made from ash & twigs' line cracks me up :)
 
I feel you, brother. I had gotten really close, but beaten in the endgame in the space race, beaten in the endgame by a cultural victor, beaten in the endgame by my former allies all turning on me at the least second...you get the picture, I'm sure. It finally all came together for me this morning, when I beat Deity (Normal/Continents) with Nubia (random leader). This turned out to be the lucky charm, and it crystallized a bunch of Deity-only thinking.

I think the most important aspect of Deity games is that you have very little margin. A barb camp that somehow spawns a swordsman can be enough to ruin your whole game, let alone getting caught in a war of attrition. All the micro-ing city location doesn't matter when you get wiped off the map before turn 100. Falling too far behind in culture, or tech, or (sometimes) religion can be unrecoverable. This means you need to be quite hardcore, and know when to quit. I'm not generally a big restart spammer, but in deity, it too much of your initial grid is unproductive mountains you'll never live long enough to compensate. You better be happy with your start to have a chance.

Working strategy really has to counter the insane 3 to 1 advantage that Civ gave Deity AI. For most of the first hundred or so turns, you will be fighting AIs with 2 or 3 times the number of cities. Even if you go weapons heavy, you simply don't have the productivity to look like a threat, which makes it highly likely that you'll face an early surprise war, even with just opportunistic AIs, never mind aggressive ones. You should have a plan for how you not just fight off that attack, but to counterattack and take at least one city. This will go a long way in discouraging continuous "you weakling" wars, and gooses your productivity with a somewhat developed city without burning the resources (and time!) for it.

Things that will help survive that war? First, expecting it and being ready to pivot from exploring/developing to battle. You can't fix it the easy way by just building lots of military. In this early game you have GOT to get more cities going asap to minimize the headstart the AIs get from their 3 settler starts. No matter what the leader, Archery is going to be critical, since you'll be heavily outnumbered and need to win while taking little to no damage. Leaders that have powerful early game UUs can be critical in helping you survive this first onslaught. Even with some help from your leader, you need to be extremely picky about how you fight. No head on attacks, preferably just you using ranged weapons with your limited units fighting from with the city or at least from squares with big defense bonuses and heavy movement penalties. You want to force to always get the first attack by staying just beyond the movement range of the attackers. Most of your attacks should be ranged weapons only, melee units should fortify and absorb damage except to kill off units with just a smidge of health left. Don't be afraid to run away, the AI is terrible at running engagements--it often blows movement points unnecessarily even though it has a numerical advantage and would benefit by sacrificing an attacker or two (you can't afford that, ever).

You need to use terrain to your advantage for both city and unit locations. Long mountain ranges with limited gaps are a huge help, as are nearby city-states, as the AI won't generally roll attacking forces through city states. Of course, defensible city locations vs. productive city locations is a bit of a min-max problem. In an ideal world, you get a great starting position with a highly productive and defensible 2nd city location nearby. You can't play too cautious, you'll need to take some risks to try to get that second city running asap. My starting build varies a bit depending on location (and very much depending on neighbors), but it usually goes Scout/Slinger/X/Settler, where X is either another scout or another slinger (scout if you haven't found much nearby, slinger if there are barb camps everywhere). Your top priority is getting a slinger kill to get the archery bonus. I've never survived that initial war without archery (not counting island starts, which generally work poorly for deity, since it's hard to make up for their starting advantage with killing a few of their units or taking a city or two).

You don't want that initial war to last very long, rush strategies are very hard to execute on Deity and you need to get to building out and developing your empire. In the ideal war, it gets close, but strategic use of upgrades (particularly delaying them until deeply wounded) let you kill of all the attackers and then use multiple archers and your one warrior to take the city nearest you before it can build walls.

The next phase is trying to control as much territory as possible (note: NOT the same thing as building as many cities as possible). Again the AI's are going to way ahead of you in generating Settlers. You need to make sure that you block them from rich areas that will take time for you to get to. You're still behind on points throughout this (though if you're lucky in the initial war, maybe you're not last). The key is working ALL micro-advantages you can, especially city-state freebies through quests. Note that early city-state dominance IS achievable and sustainable against the AI, Deity doesn't make the AI any better at using city-states. Actually, the biggest problem are AIs that destroy city-states--causing you to miss out on a lot of potential bonuses.

You also want to maximize your benefits from exploring: goody huts can be really helpful particularly if they give you a unit or, even better, a relic that generates religion AND culture far beyond your limited ability in the early game. You should try to avoid researching unboosted tech or civics--you need those advantages to catch up.

A note on religion: you will have to prioritize it if you don't want all the religions to be used up before you can earn your first Great Prophet. It's not a death sentence if you don't form a religion, but you are missing out on some easy Era points and possibly cash if the AI wasn't smart enough to take Tithe.The middle phase is relentless microing and tradeoffs. Do you run an internal trade route to boost growth of your second city or use it to open a path through the hills and rainforest? Which district first? Keep building settlers when you don't even have city walls or fortified units? You should absolutely be trying to maxmize every district bonus, and take some risks. You won't catch up if you play it safe. One frustrating point is that even if you do everything right, it's likely you'll still be middle of the pack in technology. Civics seem to be a little easier to catch up to the AI, but they'll have an advantage in culture, since they can pump out more artistic Great People and Wonders while you're still fighting to build campuses and encampments.

Prioritize controlling luxuries. Until late mid-game, it's hard to grow without luxuries, so if you can sit on the majority of them, and stingily trade them 1 for 2 or even 3 (the AI gets desperate), you'll be able to grow your cities well beyond the AIs and start to win the productivity war. Also, when the AI is offers you a deal, see if you can force them to throw in luxuries as part of the deal. The AI will sometime make terrible deals because they want some random great work. Or open borders. Or an alliance.

Pick your safe allies and be super stingy with the top 1 or 2 by score. Avoid trading or allying with them (unless you're doing it to reduce the chance of war so you can cut defense spending).

You should be prioritizing Science while steadily building your productivity. If you do it right, your productivity advantage (because you have more people, more land, more natural and luxury resources) will start to win out over most of the AI players.
At the land runs out, you should expect yet another war from at least one of your neighbors. This time, try and take a major city of theirs, preferably with a wonder or two, but don't get sucked into a long war.
Even if you do EVERYTHING right, it will likely be a battle in the endgame no matter what victory you are trying for. If you are going Science victory, you should be picking your spaceflight super city very early based on which can produce the biggest bonuses for Industrial Zone and overall production. The production required for space projects is astronomical :) so you need Governor help (Pingala--30% Space Project bonus) as well as Great Scientist help and policy cards that increase IZ bonuses. Also, reroute ALL your trade routes to deliver productivity to the space city (many people forget to do this, but it's critical at Deity).

Hope this helps. I probably played a hundred (or more?) deity games before I won, though I came agonizingly close a bunch of times. Lower levels can help you develop strategies, but Deity presents unique challenges because you simply cannot have it all, and you have to bend to the challenges of the terrain and opponents, rather than using the same cookie cutter strategies each time.

Good luck. It's worth it when you finally get it. You do also have to be a bit hardcore about quitting a game where bad luck has put you too far behind.
 
I'm struggling to make the jump to Immortal tbh let alone Diety 😳
my current analysis of my weakpints is tech & culture games I fall right behind and never catch up
 
^^I'm playing my third game on Emperor and getting comfortable with it and slowly adding in game rules.
 
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