Feminism

The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you treat someone as an inferior because you think they're special and need to be protected, or if you treat someone as an inferior because you want to dominate and subjugate them. At the end of the day, your,e still treating someone as your lesser.

In terms of rights, women were very much treated as inferiors.

Luiz - kindly note the part where I pointed out the part that the majority of western armies are volunteer-based by now, and the part where I noted that western countries are fighting less and less wars, and less and less deadly ones. So sorry, the fact that 150 or so Canadian men and women who volunteered to fight for their country (a worthy choice!) died in military action in the past decade doesn't excuse any injustices toward women.
 
Your post was pretty reasonable right up until this line at the end. Are you saying that feminism is a cause of any male issue or is your petty resentment just really that great?

Neither. Also it's funny you say it was reasonable up until that point since I'd already said something almost exactly the same earlier in the post :)

Anyway, I wrote more than enough for you to be able to discern what I meant and what I think I'm sure, and if you found the vast majority of it reasonable then I doubt I need to say more.
 
The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you treat someone as an inferior because you think they're special and need to be protected, or if you treat someone as an inferior because you want to dominate and subjugate them. At the end of the day, your,e still treating someone as your lesser.

I guess I just disagree that seeing someone as special, delicate, and something to protect means that you see them as inferior. Different yes, inferior no, at least not necessarily. And I'm not defending that stance or that opinion either, just calling it what it is and pointing out that it's a view that leads to a broad spectrum of differences, some good and some good, rather than the sort of blanket subjugation or castigation that you get with racial or religious intolerance.
 
When you say someone is not a person, doesn't have the right to own property, doesn't have the right to vote, etc, while you do, that amount to treating them as inferiors.
 
Could you expand on this idea of toxic masculinity? I never really thought about it, have only a vague idea in my mind and I am genuinely curious to learn.
It basically comes to the way we've constructed masculinity as a form of power, over women, over children and over other men, especially. Feminists call traditional gender structures "patriarchy" for a reason, because it's a system of power-relations. The feminist argument is that gendered violence expresses the true nature of these relations, which are usually presented to us as beneficial and harmonious, or more recently simply denied to exist.

These power relations express themselves as physical violence for a great variety of reasons, but I think one recurring factor is a sense of frustration which develops when men associate masculinity with power, but do not actually possess substantial power of their own. This leads them to assert power through physical, sexual or psychological violence against those who are perceived to be less powerful than them, whether this is women, children, or "lesser" men, particularly sexual and ethnic minorities. (There's an analogy that can be drawn between the symbolic content of rape and far-right street violence.)

This, obviously enough, isn't any good for anyone. So what's the escape? We can't reestablish the traditional patriarchal household, which is neither plausible nor desirable, and which the historical record suggests wouldn't necessarily improve things all that much anyway. So the only alternative is to start redefining masculinity. That's the only thing which is going to save men from themselves.

That doesn't make sense to me. The answer to society harming women for being women is feminism. The answer to society harming men for being men would be a counterpoint to feminism, most of the terms for which are objects of scorn on this forum. And I'm concerned I might be starting to flirt with being "chauvinist" if I'm not very careful in advocating that we really need to be every bit as concerned about fashioning this world for our boys as we are our girls. The issues vary some, due to the past, the present, and the biology. But stating the fact that "college age women get sexually assaulted at massive unacceptable rates" is no answer to the fact that "far too many young men are perpetrators and victims of violence." That works in reverse too, and with more statements than just those two.

If we accept the premise(which we should) that we need feminism to drum and drum on women's rights in order to empower and advance the well-being of females while rejoicing in everything that makes them females we desperately need to develop an effective counterpoint for our males that is every bit as joyful. And no, merely stating that the powerful elite are overwhelmingly dudes does not undo the culture of violence, failed education, and incarceration anymore than do supermodels being actualized individuals undo the diminishing nature of the objectification of women.
The thing is, how you address men's issues is not just a matter of who you're advocating for, but what you're advocating against, and in both cases, that is what can at least be broadly be called "patriarchy". Feminists have already developed a critical analysis of patriarchy, so any progressive men's movement is going to start from that point. Anti-feminism doesn't offer men anything, because all it can do is reaffirm tradition, and tradition has failed us.

This is something that I think we already see in scholarship. Occasionally some bozo will pipe up saying that universities need to offer "men's studies" classes, and it will be explained to them that most gender studies departments already offer classes examining men and masculinity. These aren't presented as equal and opposite to women's studies because they grew out of it, taking the insights and tools developed by feminist scholars and turning them towards a discussion of men and masculinity. If a serious anti-feminist scholarship of masculinity was possible, we'd have seen at least some sign of it, but as it stands? Not a peep.

The trick, I suppose, is encouraging something similar to develop outside of academia, at the level of everyday life, and I'd optimistically suggest that we can find the first shoots of it already springing up.


The thing I want to drive home, in regards to both of the above replies, is that I am quite definitely not "anti-male". I am on the contrary very deeply pro-male. Any serious humanism demands that we must be. I just don't think that men are, or have to be, what the reactionaries think we are. I think we can be better than that.
 
The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you treat someone as an inferior because you think they're special and need to be protected, or if you treat someone as an inferior because you want to dominate and subjugate them. At the end of the day, your,e still treating someone as your lesser.

In terms of rights, women were very much treated as inferiors.

No, I don't treat women as inferior to men.

Luiz - kindly note the part where I pointed out the part that the majority of western armies are volunteer-based by now, and the part where I noted that western countries are fighting less and less wars, and less and less deadly ones. [/QUOTE]

"Volunteer"? Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of workplace related injuries/deaths, whether it be in the military or elsewhere, are predominantly male.

It basically comes to the way we've constructed masculinity as a form of power, over women, over children and over other men, especially. Feminists call traditional gender structures "patriarchy" for a reason, because it's a system of power-relations. The feminist argument is that gendered violence expresses the true nature of these relations, which are usually presented to us as beneficial and harmonious, or more recently simply denied to exist.

Which they would be right in to say it doesn't exist.

These power relations express themselves as physical violence for a great variety of reasons, but I think one recurring factor is a sense of frustration which develops when men associate masculinity with power, but do not actually possess substantial power of their own. This leads them to assert power through physical, sexual or psychological violence against those who are perceived to be less powerful than them, whether this is women, children, or "lesser" men, particularly sexual and ethnic minorities. (There's an analogy that can be drawn between the symbolic content of rape and far-right street violence.)

Lol marxist.

This, obviously enough, isn't any good for anyone. So what's the escape? We can't reestablish the traditional patriarchal household, which is neither plausible nor desirable, and which the historical record suggests wouldn't necessarily improve things all that much anyway. So the only alternative is to start redefining masculinity. That's the only thing which is going to save men from themselves.

I actually more or less agree with you that male 'masculinity' as it's presented in hollywood and culture is a bad thing. Guns, violence etc are all bad things. That said, the marxist 'solution' is a joke.

The thing is, how you address men's issues is not just a matter of who you're advocating for, but what you're advocating against, and in both cases, that is what can at least be broadly be called "patriarchy". Feminists have already developed a critical analysis of patriarchy, so any progressive men's movement is going to start from that point. Anti-feminism doesn't offer men anything, because all it can do is reaffirm tradition, and tradition has failed us.

coming from the same person that equates raising awareness of men's issues to white supremacy? Give me a break :lol:

This is something that I think we already see in scholarship. Occasionally some bozo will pipe up saying that universities need to offer "men's studies" classes, and it will be explained to them that most gender studies departments already offer classes examining men and masculinity. These aren't presented as equal and opposite to women's studies because they grew out of it, taking the insights and tools developed by feminist scholars and turning them towards a discussion of men and masculinity. If a serious anti-feminist scholarship of masculinity was possible, we'd have seen at least some sign of it, but as it stands? Not a peep.

The trick, I suppose, is encouraging something similar to develop outside of academia, at the level of everyday life, and I'd optimistically suggest that we can find the first shoots of it already springing up.

anti-liberal elitists like me are working on it.

The thing I want to drive home, in regards to both of the above replies, is that I am quite definitely not "anti-male". I am on the contrary very deeply pro-male. Any serious humanism demands that we must be. I just don't think that men are, or have to be, what the reactionaries think we are. I think we can be better than that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I just don't think that men are,or have to be, what the reactionaries think we are".

That the 'reactionaries' (myself included) think 'boys and will boys' and this justifies horrible crimes such as rape? Because this isn't the truth at all. I actually support the death penalty for convicted rapists. I'm 100% serious.
 
Neither. Also it's funny you say it was reasonable up until that point since I'd already said something almost exactly the same earlier in the post :)

Anyway, I wrote more than enough for you to be able to discern what I meant and what I think I'm sure, and if you found the vast majority of it reasonable then I doubt I need to say more.

By reasonable I mean wrong but understandable. Its the sudden flip into feminism = bad because ????

And I can only read your reason as petty resentment that women got their ball rolling a century ago and you haven't.
 
I'm not opposed to feminism unless you mean by 'feminism' only women's issues count and men's issues should be ignored. For the record I think women actually generally have more issues than men. But men still have their own, and women's issues do not negate men's issues.
 
That the 'reactionaries' (myself included) think 'boys and will boys' and this justifies horrible crimes such as rape? Because this isn't the truth at all. I actually support the death penalty for convicted rapists. I'm 100% serious.

Lot's of conservatives do too and then routinely deny that anything specific qualifies as rape– save some obtuse black and white cases.
 
Lot's of conservatives do too and then routinely deny that anything specific qualifies as rape– save some obtuse black and white cases.

I am not a conservative. I am moderate leaning left but not a liberal elitist.

Even groping a woman against her will I would consider rape.
 
If the boy get the girl's consent via fundamental lies (for example: "No, I don't want to get pregnant" "I've had a vasectomy, you can't get pregnant", "Oh, okay then", where the vasectomy bit is a lie), what do you view that as?

Keep in mind that in any contract a lie of that kind would be enough to void the contract on the basis that it wasn't actually consented to.
 
And we're done. One sentence in. Good job.

So you can't handle a difference of opinion. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but then I'd be lying.
 
So you can't handle a difference of opinion. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but then I'd be lying.
You dismiss entire fields of study and expect your opinion to hold equal weight? What's the point in his continuing the conversation if you aren't ready for it?

I am not a conservative. I am moderate leaning left but not a liberal elitist.

Even groping a woman against her will I would consider rape.

That's terribly extreme. Even more extreme than the conservatives I was mentioning. Why are you so extreme that groping should result in execution?

Also, what is a liberal elitist?
 
To be fair, he isn't dismissing a hard subject like physics or chemistry.

He is dismissing gender/women studies. Which is basically errant nonsense.
 
To be fair, he isn't dismissing a hard subject like physics or chemistry.

He is dismissing gender/women studies. Which is basically errant nonsense.

It isn't but you can dismiss it too.
 
You should watch those documentaries I linked in another thread. If the Norwegian gender studies academics are in anyway representitive of the work done internationally, than it is a completely broken field.
 
To be fair, he isn't dismissing a hard subject like physics or chemistry.

He is dismissing gender/women studies. Which is basically errant nonsense.

gender/women's studies isn't potentially nonsense, but at the time being it is.

You dismiss entire fields of study and expect your opinion to hold equal weight? What's the point in his continuing the conversation if you aren't ready for it?

I'm not against women's gender studies as a concept, but there are two major problems with them being taught at universities.

1. Even English majors have an easier time finding jobs. At least writing skills some people like. With even something as 'worthless' as philosophy at least that's required for divinity school, so you have that option. Women's/gender studies degrees are the bottom of the barrel, even by humanities standards.

2. The problem with these classes (all humanities classes suffer from this same problem but this particular field the most) is that they are overwhelmingly leftist to the point that marxism is pretty much the norm, and anyone that dares say the white man or men in general doesn't have it best will be bashed to a pulp.

That's terribly extreme. Even more extreme than the conservatives I was mentioning. Why are you so extreme that groping should result in execution?

Maybe groping is simply 'sexual assault' then. Maybe six months in prison.

Also, what is a liberal elitist?

Politically correct (often self hating white men) liberal's that drink coffee (expensive kind) and using academia jargon that no one else cares about.
 
Even groping a woman against her will I would consider rape.
What if a man is groped against his will? What about someone who is transgender? Exactly what level of touching is enough to be "groping"? How would anyone ever "maker a move," as the youths say, if there's a chance they could be executed for it? Are you saying two (or more) parties should sign a legal contract before doing anything remotely sexual, as in that Chappelle Show skit? To clear any confusion?
 
Back
Top Bottom