[RD] Feminism

[civver_764]

Let me make this easier for you: how many slave-based societies send their slaves to war and stayed powerful? Is it because the slaves convinced them to put them into a protected class to be fought for, because the slaves were the powerful? Was the existence of the Spartan warrior class the "equally arguable" evidence that they were a slaveocracy?

You're making a huge jump from "lack of political power" to "slave" here.

Also, wasn't it the case in Roman society that most men lacked political power too?

 

[Hygro]

I'm highlighting a logical conclusion.

Being a soldier entitled you to power by way of land and citizenship.

 

[civver_764]

Being a soldier entitled you to power by way of land and citizenship.

Power and land which they shared with their female partners, who didn't have to risk their lives at all.

Who is the more privileged one -- the man who gives up his life at war or the woman who can't vote?

 

[Hygro]

Again, we can swap in "slave" for woman to fulfill the same conditions in this example.

 

[civver_764]

No, you can't just swap in "slave" because the experience of a slave was fundamentally different than that of a woman.

However, you can probably draw some comparisons between a drafted soldier and a slave.

 

[JollyRoger]

What would happen to a woman's right to the property if she left her husband in Rome? Who possessed the superior inheritance rights - a wife or a son?

 

[civver_764]

Men definitely had more property rights, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

for now, feminism has won the battle of making people realize that it IS a terrible crime with long-lasting consequence (to the point of exageration actually, like when people manage to claim it's worse than death)

Points for the first part of the sentence, but I take them away for the last part. You've probably never had a long conversation with a woman who really and truly wished she was dead because of a rape - and has telltale slash marks on her wrists from trying to end it. (Note to those quibbling now: I know is is not typically a suitable way to commit suicide. It rarely works. It's the repeated attempts that are the problem.) How do you know that these potential suicides are really exaggerating?

I don't think you're very well-positioned to declare the feelings of people who have been raped and feel they would rather have been killed invalid

I'm pleased to see that at least someone might understand my point. You've hit the nail right on the head. These people have no idea. I have talked to a lot of these women, AND I'm a woman, and even I'm not well positioned.

I'm not declaring their feelings invalid.

Ummm...

I can emphasize with the idea that a person who has been raped feels like they would better off dead.

I assume you mean empathize and just misspoke. Can you really? By your previous comments in this and other threads where the topic was raised, I would doubt that very much. You seem to have no empathy at all.

But that doesn't mean they're actually in a position of making the judgement of whether rape is worth than death. The only people who can do that are people who have both, been raped, and died at some point during their life. Those people usually don't have the capacity to talk. Because they're dead.

You're just splitting hairs. It's obvious that any person can't (or usually can't) draw a comparison between rape and death. You're either arguing for the pleasure of it, or you are being deliberately obtuse. Rape and resulting suicidal ideation is a typical issue that most people can't understand. The problem is compounded by the fact that most of the replies of this type in the thread have been made by men. You have no idea how a woman feels. Intellectually, you might be able to put yourself in a woman's place, but not emotionally. If you, yourself have been raped, you might have an idea of the emotional turmoil that follows. You might just "get it".

Some of you (not all) can sit in front of your computers and pontificate all you like, and try to intellectualize the act of rape and how a woman might feel about it, but in the end you're just being piss artists. It's easy to sit in your easy chair and disseminate half truths and hyperbole on the internet, but you know nothing of what you are talking about until you've walked a mile in a rape victim's shoes. Even I don't truly know, after I don't know how many conversations that I've had on the subject (and believe me, those conversations are no fun in case you were wondering). What does it take to get through to some of you pseudo-intellectuals and get you actually clued in? It's not an exaggeration, or something that can just be dismissed with the wave of a hand as just a phase. It's a horrible, terrifying, excruciating, emotionally devastating experience that no woman (or man, for that matter) should have to live through. Ever. No wonder some women say they would have rather been killed by their attacker.

Being dismissive of an issue that is highly sensitive to women does nothing to improve your cachè with feminists, or in fact most people capable of compassion. What's next? Rape memes?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Men definitely had more property rights, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.

Correct. And the more you take into account in your equation the better off men show up to be. That's why the MRM "let's find all the tiny examples that cut against the grain and pretend they are all that is happening" position is so odious.

 

[civver_764]

They're not tiny examples though. I mean even if we look SOLELY at the suicide rates that should show you that something is wrong here with regards to the experience of each gender.

 

[Hygro]

No, you can't just swap in "slave" because the experience of a slave was fundamentally different than that of a woman.

You are arguing that you can "just as easily" say a draft is evidence of matriarchy. You are using the logical framework that those sent to die are in service to those not allowed to fight. That's a logical construct. I am demonstrating that the same logical construct you are using to try to say it's just as easy to argue the opposite would categorically also apply to saying that slaves hold power by being slaves and being the ones who have to stay home while the citizens/citizens-to-be fight.

This entire discussion is to make clear why you can't "just as easily say" a draft is evidence of a matriarchy. There isn't historical grounding, and the logic fatal loose ends.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They're not tiny examples though. I mean even if we look SOLELY at the suicide rates that should show you that something is wrong here with regards to the experience of each gender.

Do you not get that you just took what I said and provided the absolute most extreme example? I said that you want to pick and choose only the things that cut in favor of your "men are the downtrodden" position, and instead of picking out those few you countered with "let's just base it on ONE."

By the way, what is wrong there is that men are weak. This is just anecdotal observation, but in circumstances where men will kill themselves most women will just tough it out.

 

[civver_764]

Do you not get that you just took what I said and provided the absolute most extreme example? I said that you want to pick and choose only the things that cut in favor of your "men are the downtrodden" position, and instead of picking out those few you countered with "let's just base it on ONE."

I was showing that your "tiny examples" thing was BS.

By the way, what is wrong there is that men are weak. This is just anecdotal observation, but in circumstances where men will kill themselves most women will just tough it out.

I'm starting to suspect that you're some kind of troll...

Imagine if women were killing themselves 4x more than men, and people told them it's because they're "weak"? How do you think that would go over with the feminists?

 

[Spoonwood]

The first two points seem to be bald assertions with no real argument. Numbers 3-5, if true, seem to be the patriarchy at work. As to number 6, many dry cleaning establishments charge less to clean a man's shirt than a woman's blouse.

With respect to 1., female genital cutting of minors is explicitly against federal law in the United States. Such illegal genital cutting includes type IV female genital mutilation. On the other hand, genital cutting of male minors is exceedingly common in the United States and in some other nations.

With respect to 2., women can unilaterally opt out of having to have responsibility for a child after sex by say adoption (and not telling the man), or in enough cases abortion. Men don't have such a right to unilaterally opt out having responsibility for a child after sex. And culturally speaking such men get called "dead beats". I don't know of any slightly similar term for women choosing to opt out of parental responsibility and some people really do believe that even if their opting out involves the death of a sentient child, such opting out works out as morally acceptable.

If 3. through 5. involve "patriarchy" at work, then such a system deliberately disadvantages men, not women. And such a "patriarchy" does so for the benefit of women to some extent. I really don't see how you can use the term "patriarchy" here accurately though. A *father* who falls on his sword to save his family can't accurately get called a patriarch, can he? As brave as he may have been, as morally upstanding as he may be, he is not someone who rules, for he has died. And without ruling, no man is a patriarch. I don't see how groups of men who put women's interests ahead of their own qualify as patriarchs either, since doing such doesn't sound like ruling to me either. So, no that really doesn't sound like patriarchy to me.

Also, in terms of family relations the whole notion of patriarchy even historically speaking seems exaggerated. Even in places where wives couldn't own property but husbands could, that doesn't exactly show patriarchy. It can indicate male preference, but patriarchy has to involve rule by the father. If the husband who owns property and the wive can't, but the husband is not the father of the children he raises, then he is simply not a patriarch, because he is not the father. And men raising children who are not their own for one reason or another is as old as humanity.

With respect to 6. a man's shirt and a woman's blouse are not the same goods. With respect to discounts at business, I think those generally apply to say car washes or discounts on the same goods. Also, do you really think that a woman's blouse is just about as complicated as a man's shirt? I mean, don't men generally dress more plainly, perhaps prudently, perhaps boringly, than women?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Imagine if women were killing themselves 4x more than men, and people told them it's because they're "weak"? How do you think that would go over with the feminists?

What makes you think I care "how it goes over"? Or would go over.

You have abjectly failed to demonstrate "men have it far worse than women" despite repeating your assertion enough that it has become an annoying drone. Now you pop out this hail mary of "they must have it worse, they are killing themselves" as if it somehow makes the point you haven't been able to support. I present an obvious alternative...men are just weak. Here's another obvious alternative; men are accustomed to holding the monopoly on killing, among their other privileges, so of course they are more inclined to solve their problems by killing...even if the killing involved is killing themselves.

By the way, what kind of troll are you suspecting that I am? Please tell me something other than the kind who just repeats the same discredited assertion over and over and over and over, because that kind I think is maybe the worst.

 

[Ryika]

Ummm...

"Uhmm" what?

I assume you mean empathize and just misspoke. Can you really? By your previous comments in this and other threads where the topic was raised, I would doubt that very much. You seem to have no empathy at all.

Yeah, I can. But I can also put my feelings aside and argue about things on a purely rational level, which you seem to not be capable of, at least on this specific subject.

You're just splitting hairs. It's obvious that any person can't (or usually can't) draw a comparison between rape and death. You're either arguing for the pleasure of it, or you are being deliberately obtuse. Rape and resulting suicidal ideation is a typical issue that most people can't understand. The problem is compounded by the fact that most of the replies of this type in the thread have been made by men. You have no idea how a woman feels. Intellectually, you might be able to put yourself in a woman's place, but not emotionally. If you, yourself have been raped, you might have an idea of the emotional turmoil that follows. You might just "get it".

It's funny to me that you say that "anybody" can draw a comparison between rape and death, and at the same time declare that people who have not been raped cannot possible know how a woman feels. One of these is literally impossible, but it's not the one you chose.

Some of you (not all) can sit in front of your computers and pontificate all you like, and try to intellectualize the act of rape and how a woman might feel about it, but in the end you're just being piss artists. It's easy to sit in your easy chair and disseminate half truths and hyperbole on the internet, but you know nothing of what you are talking about until you've walked a mile in a rape victim's shoes. Even I don't truly know, after I don't know how many conversations that I've had on the subject (and believe me, those conversations are no fun in case you were wondering). What does it take to get through to some of you pseudo-intellectuals and get you actually clued in? It's not an exaggeration, or something that can just be dismissed with the wave of a hand as just a phase. It's a horrible, terrifying, excruciating, emotionally devastating experience that no woman (or man, for that matter) should have to live through. Ever. No wonder some women say they would have rather been killed by their attacker.

Uhh... are you still responding to me? Because like I said, I can understand why a person who was raped would feel that way. I can understand why people in many situations feel that way.

That doesn't change that nobody can make a definitive statement about which one is better, because nobody has ever experienced death and come back to explain to the rest of us what it was like to be dead (at least nobody who sounded believable). For all we know, there probably is nothing to compare to, death is just "not existing", which is something that nothing that exists in the realm of "existence" can really be compared to.

So to summarize my point: Yeah, I totally get that some victims of rape or other serious crimes feel like they'd be better off dead. These feelings are valid, and maybe it's even the compassionate thing to enable them to pass away. Maybe you're a terrible person for talking to people and prolonging their suffering instead of assisting them in their suicide. I don't think that's the case, but I'm open to the argument - because in the end, I am all for allowing people who suffer from severe physical pain to choose death over an existence in pain, so on the purely theoretical level, maybe it would make sense to extend that courtesy to the emotional, or psychological level. The main point against that is of course that these things can over time be changed to something less severe. But who am I to tell people that they have to live through the pain?

Anyway. None of that changes that nobody is in the position of seriously evaluating "what's better", being alive and having to live with ones past, or being dead. Because nobody knows "what it is like to be dead", and because "not existing" is not really something that you can even compare things to. Like I said in the last iteration of this topic, I think which one a person thinks is worse probably depends on their philosophical view on what non-existence means to them.

Being dismissive of an issue that is highly sensitive to women does nothing to improve your cachè with feminists, or in fact most people capable of compassion. What's next? Rape memes?

Well, rape jokes are funny, so I wouldn't dismiss the idea of rape memes. I mean, we even had them for a long time if you really think about it. Pedobear would fit that description. So yeah, I guess I like rape memes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have to say that I have been accused of pushing the boundaries of humor far beyond any limit of social acceptability (PM me for my 9/11 joke, which first appeared about three hours after the collapse of the second tower) but I honestly can't think of a funny rape joke.

 

[Ryika]

I once made a youtube comment with a compilation of 10 of the funniest rape jokes I had heard, got a few hundred upvotes for it.
But of course humor is subjective, and often a way to deal with trauma. Maybe you don't enjoy them because you didn't have to deal with rape. Or it's just not your humor.

 

[Spoonwood]

And the more you take into account in your equation the better off men show up to be.

The Romans literally crucified people they didn't like. Do you really think that they crucified women close to as many men as they crucified?

Their is no shortage of wars in Roman history, is there? Did the Romans target the women in those wars, or did they target the men? Who suffered wounds on the battlefields? Who died or got seriously crippled because they were working with iron? Did the women work the iron mines? Who died or got seriously injured when they built their aqueducts? When the Romans wanted slaves did they mostly want women slaves, or male slaves to ease the burden of heavy manual labor?

I completely disagree with your claim. The more you take into account in your equation, compared to women, the worse off men show up to be and the better off women show up to be, comparatively speaking.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I once made a youtube comment with a compilation of 10 of the funniest rape jokes I had heard, got a few hundred upvotes for it.
But of course humor is subjective, and often a way to deal with trauma. Maybe you don't enjoy them because you didn't have to deal with rape. Or it's just not your humor.

I'm still at a loss, because I honestly can't recall ever hearing one. It was easy to say I hadn't heard any funny ones, because if I had I'd have stolen them so I know I'd remember them pretty much immediately. But really rooting around in the old brain pan hasn't even turned up any that I thought weren't funny. Environmental factors maybe.