FF1, PtW, "It's just waaay too crowded"

F

falsfire

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
167
Location
Calgary
Hi all,

I'm thinking of starting this SG of my own, as soon as RBP1 which I'm in is wrapped up. Should be soon, we're on the verge of domination.

Anyhow, on to the idea here. I've played this idea somewhat on single player, and it is quite playable, and rather nuts at some points. Here are the specs I was thinking of:

Standard Map size
Pangaea, 60% water
Diff: Emperor

Modified rules to allow ALL TWENTY-FOUR civs to share a standard size map.

Our civ would be open to discussion, but I was thinking of one of the civs with an early fast-move UU, like the Chinese, Arabs, Aztecs, Zulu, or Celts. I'd rather not play the Celts, tho, as that's what we're playing in RBP1.
Probably starting it within a week if RBP1 keeps steaming along to the expected finish soon. I'm just posting this now to see if there'd be any interest in a game of this nature.

I'd prefer ppl who have beaten Emperor b4, as with a world this crowded there will be little room for error. I'd like to cap it at 6 players, including myself.

EDITed EDIT:

Game is running, 1-2 more players welcome, will probably close the game to new players after we hit Middle Ages...

Roster:
1. falsfire
2. JaxomCA
3. Lt. Killer "M"
4. Cartouche Bee
5. open
6. open
 
I have no objection to the everything random idea, pending the opinions of other interested parties, of course.

The one thing that would not be random, though, is the pangaea 60% setting. The idea is "it's just way too crowded" after all :)
 
Why not try a TINY map, with 24 civs, and give everyone an extra settler? :)
 
tiny with AI's having xtra settlers?!

the one i played on a standard map had my capital 5 tiles from london, 7 from entremont and 8 from tenochtitlan. 24 civs on a tiny map, you'd probably see two or three other civs units on the first turn, and never get to build a 2nd city if they start with free settler.

i was only able to get to four cities on mine cuz i popped a settler from a hut on turn two, and ran a mini-blockade on an iroquois settler pair using the only two units i had in the area, my worker and scout!

but tech flies on this kind of setup, and an early military buildup is a MUST to survive. diplomacy does get interesting with 23 people to talk to each turn, i had one turn where i bought one tech and traded around and around so many times i ended up learning 8 new techs that turn for the price of one :)
 
Okay, so we have, so far:

1. falsfire
2. JaxomCA
3. Zed-F (was that an 'interested' post or just a comment on the idea?)
4. Lt. Killer-M
5. open
6. open

RBP1 may just finish up this weekend b4 my next turn comes around, so we could be set to start by as early as Mon, Tue next week.

As usual for most SG's, only exploits are disallowed. No RoP rape, etc. No making peace for concrete items then breaking the treaty. We may feel free to be as honourable or dastardly in our dealings as the game goes on. Peace treaties may be broken if only per-turn items were provided on both sides of the table.
Just wanted to clarify that before we begin.
 
That was a comment on the idea. IIRC, the human player always moves first, so gets the first opportunity to settle and/or to move his settler(s). The AIs will not found cities too close to other cities, whereas human players can build much closer together if desired (witness ICS). I would be fairly confident that, if there is any room for a second city at all in the area, the human player would be able to get it before the AIs. In fact, one approach might be to have the two starting settlers move 1 tile diagonally each in opposite directions, and found cities on the 2nd turn. Almost certainly all the land would be taken within 3 or 4 turns, though, and some AIs would be forced to merge settlers into existing cities.

You could also skip the extra settler for the human and let him OCC it to start with, and give the AIs 2 settlers even if they are not on Deity. You'd still have all available land locked up in short order. Anyway, if you'd rather have a *little* bit of room to grow, a standard map is fine too. I just thought it would be interesting to push the concept to the extreme. :)

As for whether to sign up, I'm sort of debating it. I make it a rule not to play in more than 1 SG at a time, and RBE4 is not quite done yet, though I doubt I'll get another turn. I'm also kind of curious to see what comes out of the current discussion on the main RBE thread about what to do after RBP1 and RBE4. So, I think I'll hold off on signing up for this one, for the moment. If nothing happens at the RBE thread, I'll see if there's still room here.
 
And the game is afoot!

I start the game, loading my scenario with the only changed rule being that to allow 24 civs on a standard size map, and set pangaea, 60% water, everything else random.

The map is generated, and we are....the ZULU!!! (like expansionist will matter all that much on this map, we'll be reaching out our kitchen window to shake our neighbours' hands in no time!)

ff1_start.jpg



4000 BC [1] - I move our worker onto the bonus grass, move our scout due north and spot incense. I elect to move our settler onto the coast to found in 3950 BC.

3950 BC [2] - Zimbabwe is founded on the coast. Good news: there are spices just to the south of the capitol. I never imagined we'd have two of our own luxuries in this game w/o getting medieval on our neighbours! I consider making a settler our first build, so we can maybe grab *some* land, but it'll take us 20 turns to grow to size 3 and less than that to build a settler. I setup for another scout to meet our neighbours, then we'll want a couple MP, as the natives are likely to grow restless very fast in this game. Our northern scout discovers even more incense in the desert. I set research on the path to Polytheism, although how much of our own research we'll be doing in this game is yet to be seen, probably not much.

3850 BC [4] - We spy our first neighbour, a brown border to the north (Carthage or Russia?)

3800 BC [5] - It's Cathy. She won't trade us bronze working for Warrior Code, but that's okay, I'm sure we'll have alot more trade opportunities soon. Eight tiles between our capitol and hers, that's a tad further apart than expected...expect to meet more very close neighbours.

3750 BC [6] - A blue border is spotted right near Russia. Whomever's capitol that is, they're only FOUR tiles from Moscow!

3700 BC [7] - It's Bismarck. He has Bronze working, Masonry, lacks Pottery. Cathy now has Warrior Code as well as Ceremonial Burial. Hey! How come we didn't get any huts near our capitol? Our 2nd scout heads south, only to discover we're at the southern tip of a peninsula.

3600 BC [9] - We meet Hannibal of Carthage. His capitol is only six tiles from Berlin. Looks like we got lucky in not being too crowded. We might even get 3 or 4 cities self-founded! He has Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, and Ceremonial Burial, and lacks none of the techs we have. I make a small deal: Pottery, 2gpt, 23g to Bismarck for Masonry, then Masonry, 1gpt to Cathy for Bronze Working and 13g.

3550BC [10] - Cathy got Alphabet. Now her & Carthage are up CB & Alphabet, Bismarck is up CB on us.

3450BC [12] - A peek at F11 shows that Washington is already at size 5!!! He must have some crazy food bonuses and be building a wonder instead of settlers? Nobody has 2 cities as we're all tied at 21 tiles land area.

3300BC [15] - An Aztec Jaguar warrior appears near our capitol (there must be a narrow isthmus of land there I missed!) We trade Masonry for CB & his 6g. If he heads for our capitol we can swap the granary build to a spearman.

3250BC [16] - We meet a Viking scout in the west. We both have all the same techs, no trade opportunities.

3150BC [18] - Bismarck got Alphabet. Carthage has two workers in his capitol (just passing thru, or under siege by barbs or Bismarck?)

3100BC [19] - I've spotted a yellow border in the west. Due to being stuck in jungle, may take me 2 turns to meet them (either Egypt or Mongolia).

3050BC [20] - I meet an Egyptian settler/warrior pair. She's also up Alphabet on us. Starting to look real attractive to buy into it soon though, with four known rivals having it. Also this turn, Bismarck has The Wheel.

Game summary:
Of our known rivals, Bismarck has a 2nd city already, and Egypt has a setter heading out. We're not nearly as crowded as some of our neighbours (just look at the Moscow<->Berlin<->Carthage line of cities!)

Here's the known world map as of 3050 BC:

ff1_wm_3050BC.jpg


Roster:
falsfire
->JaxomCA (UP!)
Killer (on deck)

Still looking for 1-3 more players!

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/ff1/ff1_3050BC.zip
 
Heh, this looked cool. I dont have ptw, so I couldnt join, but a week ago I tried something like this with regular Civ3: 16 civs, Tiny Pangea 80%water. Everybody except me got 2 or 3 cities *built*. It was on Emperor, but that didnt matter. I was China, so I began by building 3 archers (no barracks even), invaded Paris, invaded Berlin with more archers, found horses, invaded Moscow, made peace with France, made peace with Germany, made peace with Russia. Invaded Rome, destroyed Babylon, made peace with Rome. Built 10 swords and ampaged past a lot more civs.
I dont really have time to post the whole game here, though. But I wish you bad luck, and not because I hate you. Luck is *not* needed on this kind of map. Luck here will give prolly give you conquest victory in ca. 1500 BC. Having 4 cities and growing when the AI has 2 per, and you can get tech in peace deals, and so on... My game never got past Riders, btw/
 
sorry, 20 turns first time through the rotation, then 10 each after that.

It's not set in stone, if you're close to accomplishing something significant feel free to stretch it out a few turns here and there...
 
Preturn: Take a look around, ugly terrain, no fresh water for miles and a huge desert as our main expansion area. We truly are the Zulu, stuck at the southern tip of South Africa. My initial feeling is that we will want to capture Moscow and Berlin as soon as possible and build a FP in Berlin. Rearrange tiles in Zimbabwe to have the granary complete before the city grows to size 3 and off we go.


  1. 3000BC I rename the NE scout to Babalou and move him, revealing 2 borders under the fog, one pink the other, dunno. I rename the NW scout Mowgli and try to avoid the jungle.
  2. 2950BC Babalou finds an annoyed Japanese. He is willing to teach us about the Wheel for knowledge of Masonry and Warrior Code. I then sell the Wheel to Carthages for his 25 golds. We have horses directly under our capitol.
  3. 2900BC Babalou finds a polite Iroquois. He has no tech to teach us and is too poor to buy in.
  4. 2850BC The granary is ready, a settler is ordered. Mowgli finds another border.
  5. 2800BC Mowgli finds the polite French. Joan doesn't know about the Wheel, she accepts to trade it straight up for the Alphabet. A Russian settler pair appears straight north of Zimbabwe.
  6. 2750BC Oh it is not a settler pair, it is a spearman/warrior pair looking for trouble. Move over Ruska, nothing to see here, our city defenses are only taking a short coffee break.
  7. 2710BC ...
  8. 2670BC ...
  9. 2630BC The trouble seekers move away. The first Zulu settler goes off and a warrior is ordered.
  10. 2590BC ...
  11. 2550BC France and Germany know of Iron Working.
  12. 2510BC ...
  13. 2470BC Ulundi is founded NE of the capitol, claiming 2 incenses and begins a barracks. Joan would sell IW for 78 golds and 4GPT but nobody elses has anything useful to offer.
  14. 2430BC ...
  15. 2390BC Japan knows of mysticism.
  16. 2350BC Babalou finds an annoyed Babylonian who knows about mysticism and IW. Ah, Ragnar somehow picked up Iron Working and still lacks Alphabet, he agress to trade if we pay him 48 golds. Tokugawa agrees for a straight up deal giving us Mysticism. Germany knows of mysticism so I sell it back to Ragnar for 70 golds. Diplomacy will be a hell and a quarter to keep track with 24 civs! Research begins on Polytheism at best pace (40 turns :( ). The only iron in sight is many miles away, so that is it folks, we will have horseman and Impi until the end of the middle ages if we don't fight.
  17. 2310BC Babalou finds the Celts, they know Horseback riding and are filthy rich.
  18. 2270BC Mowgli finds the Greeks, they are annoyed and too poor to pay for mysticism. Babalou finds Spain, who are also annoyed and too poor. Whoa! Carthages now has writing and horseback riding and contact with 6 more civs. Somebody sold contact with us to the Roman who also know about writing and horseback riding.
  19. 2230BC Zimbabwe finishes a settler and orders a warrior. Babalou finds a cautious Chinese who is hopelessly backward.
  20. 2190BC All the contacts would cost less than 50 golds, so I buy all of them. I sell some widely known techs to get all the golds and recover about 65 golds.
    [/list=1]

    Zimbabwe is building a barrack, you should let it finish as the worker is chopping down a forest and will be done in 2 turns. Arabia knows Horseback Riding but lacks writing. It's possible to buy writing for all we have and get horseback riding too, but that is a lot of money and it may be better to wait. The settler is heading for the next NW tile for a new city. I think we cannot get more cities peacefully, at least not any useful cities. So it seems best to build chariots in Zinbabwe and Impi in Ulundi and buy Horseback riding when we have about 5 to 10 chariots. A couple of workers should also be built in Zimbabwe.

    The save game, at the end of 2190 BC
 
So if I count correctly, we have 22 contacts? We're only missing one...which is Ghandi if I'm not mistaken...

Diplomacy will be fun. Going round a 23-person table will be trying at times, but who knows, here and there we may pull off some amazing many-for-one tech deals. That and being able to finish a civ in <10 turns using only horsemen and impi, since they'll all be quite small still at 3, maybe four cities if they're lucky...

Good thing I left all the victory conditions open, but could you imagine trying to score a diplomatic victory if somehow all 24 civs survive?!? We could get eleven votes for us and still lose!

Not going to happen though, this *is* a powderkeg, and I'm sure it's gonna go off real quick-like when the land runs out. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8-10 civs die before reaching knights...
 
Well, I did find this idea fascinating when you proposed it, but since I am saving my other SG time commitment for RBP3 and the proposed Menagerie game I didn't join this. But I did start up a solo one, though on Monarch just so I could play loosely without having to agonize too much over micromanagement and diplomacy.

The first thing I noticed is that you don't really have to do much more diplomacy than a game with a normal number of civs once you've found all your contacts. All of the AI wealth will concentrate with just two or three civs and those will be the ones that always get the new techs, the rest will soon be behind and destitute permanently. Going along with this, you'll have to be the one to establish just about every embassy that gets established, most of them will never have the cash lying around to afford it. And at 30-100 gold to establish one, you'll need to pick and choose which ones are important to have.

The second is that until you research government techs there's not even any point to minimum science, there's little to no chance that none of the other 23 are going to pass up researching that tech for 40 turns, running no science and buying as you go is much better.

The third is that, while you wouldn't think it, the player is at a TREMENDOUS advantage with this many civs, all you need to do to get ahead for keeps is to capture two or three cities and then you're 1.5x to 2x the size of any other civ on the planet and you can leverage that out as far as you care to take it. If you can conquer your way to 8 cities, you'll likely be the only one able to build your FP, and from there you'll have an insurmountable production advantage.

The fourth is that AI vs. AI war will be almost constant but for the most part they'll stalemate each other. As soon as one starts winning, they'll either collapse from over-extension or become a relative superpower.
 
Nice little peice of dirt you got there! Looks to me like your playing a bit short handed so, mind if I join in aftet Lt. or are you saving all that fun for yourselves? :)
 
Welcome aboard, Cartouche. You can take a 20-turn round after Killer, then we're all back to 10 rounds per.

(playing 20 is not req'd, you may feel free to pass off the game earlier if you wish. I played only 19, had to tend to some RL issues)
 
I'm thinking we should try to land ourselves 4-5 cities, self-founded, if we can, hopefully 3 of them will be decent shield cities.

Pop some RAX in our good producing cities, and build up a small force of impi/horsemen.

Just to be on the safe side, I'd say to attack with a stack of 7-8 horsemen guarded by 3-4 impi for each capitol we want to sack.

Of course, that's if we decide to get medieval on these ppl in this game. Remember...the zulu time to shine militarily is very early in the game, with their defensive impi able to run alongside attacking horses. If possible, we don't want our impi to have to defend against too many swordsmen, as the odds are in the swordsmen's favour if we're on flat grass/plains/desert.

Just my thoughts on the matter! Others' opinions are of *course* welcomed in this game, the last time I playtested this concept into the Middle Ages, I was playing a peaceful Arabia. Things are a tad different playing the zulu with a southern desert-surrounded start.
 
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