FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Grillick]

I didn't mean to imply you were suggesting that they'd balance the elves, Unser.

I was suggesting that increasing city defenses and the reliance on siege weaponry is a way to make the elves pay in the mid-late game for their early game advantages.

 

[Grillick]

I'd like to see the Bannor Enforcers start with City Garrison I, rather than simply having a slightly higher bonus to city defense than a warrior. This way, the extra city defense would carry on through upgrades. As it is, there is only a small increase in strength for defense going from Enforcer to Guardsman, and without access to the City Garrison promotion, the guardsman promotion can be very detrimental to the unit.

 

[upthorn]

After reading a couple of threads devoted to the economically unbalanced nature of the Ljosalfar, it seems most of the complaints are due to their ability to build in forests.

To balance this somewhat, it might be worthwhile to give workers of other civs the ability to build in forests, with the research of hidden paths.
Cottages, at least.
Then the economic advantage the elves have would be reduced from "Only civ able to build cottages in forests" to "starts with the ability to build in forests"
The advantage would still be significant, but it would be limited to the early game (or very early, if an opponent rushes hidden paths).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I didn't mean to imply you were suggesting that they'd balance the elves, Unser.

I was suggesting that increasing city defenses and the reliance on siege weaponry is a way to make the elves pay in the mid-late game for their early game advantages.

??? I thought I thought I did think what you were thinking? I must have worded something wrong.

But yes, if city defenses were so high, that would make the lack of siege weaponry much more significant than it is now. That, an the VERY important changes made to the magic system (need a Node in order to learn ANY spells in that sphere) would indeed leave Ljo with a significant weakness in the capture-a-city department.

 

[Grillick]

Well, the Ljosalfar start with Fire mana in their palace, so they're not too handicapped by the new mana system. But really, the absence of siege weapons seems almost trivial, to me.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Well, the Ljosalfar start with Fire mana in their palace, so they're not too handicapped by the new mana system. But really, the absence of siege weapons seems almost trivial, to me.

I tend to agree, under current circumstances. I rarely build siege weapons. The colloateral damage role is much more efficient comeing from Fireballs, and even more so from Plague. That just leaves defensive reduction for their role. And that's sort of optional when you could just Plage and skeleton-swarm the defenders down to about 3 STR before actually attacking. Now that magic Spheres are harder to get, that's a bit harder to achieve. But not so very expensive, as Plague is a teir-2 spell.

ANYWAY, yeah, siege weapons right now, not so useful compared to other stuff you could build. Speaking in broad generalities, of course.

 

[eerr]

I tend to agree, under current circumstances. I rarely build siege weapons. The colloateral damage role is much more efficient comeing from Fireballs, and even more so from Plague. That just leaves defensive reduction for their role. And that's sort of optional when you could just Plage and skeleton-swarm the defenders down to about 3 STR before actually attacking. Now that magic Spheres are harder to get, that's a bit harder to achieve. But not so very expensive, as Plague is a teir-2 spell.

ANYWAY, yeah, siege weapons right now, not so useful compared to other stuff you could build. Speaking in broad generalities, of course.

ah, but siege is cheap and expendable and effective
and plague doesn't work on undead/deamons
so if you catch people early you can build the correct defense

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

ah, but siege is cheap and expendable and effective
and plague doesn't work on undead/deamons
so if you catch people early you can build the correct defense

Yeah, I just have not had waves of that particular foe sent at me yet.

(but it's no where as cheap or expendable as a 'free' spell )

 

[hadrian11]

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

 

[eerr]

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

nope, but the fellowship of leaves early hero can too

 

[eerr]

Yeah, I just have not had waves of that particular foe sent at me yet.

(but it's no where as cheap or expendable as a 'free' spell )

free?
magic users take a significant investment to develope

 

[slithy]

I haven't gotten around to playing all the Neutrals yet, but I played the Ljolsfar (sp?) and noticed they are Good now - must have missed that patch note... but in the midst of that experience, I remembered the LAST time I played the elves (at least a month ago), in which I tried to get a religious victory. . I think 80 percent dominance is just too much - it is next to impossible to achieve (as opposed to just really really really hard, which I could live with).

In that game I deliberately only founded Leaves and wiped out all the Evil civs first so that hopefully no one would research the Ashen Veil, and there were no Sheiam or Kuriotates, so no Cult to worry about either. So I just had Runes, OO, and the Order to stamp out. I took my empire up to just barely under winning Dominance, switched to Theocracy and used my Inquisitors to cleanse all my cities so I was 100% Runes (I had razed the OO and Runes holy cities when I had the chance, too). I left only 2 rivals alive, both on my continent, both Leaves followers like me. However, the closest I got was 77%, and that was even with all my cities flat-out growing as fast as I could get them to go. I peaked there, and oscillated between 75 and 77 percent for around 50 years before I gave up in disgust and just invaded one of my "friends" to end the game.

If it was something more realistic like, say, 66 percent (just like Dominance), then it might be worth the effort, but otherwise I just don't see the point - the only way I could ever see doing it would be to cheese it out, take people's cities in war, cleanse them, then give 'em back so you don't trigger Dominance - or else turn Dominance right off - but in both cases, you're really just doing it to prove it can be done, not as a alternate strategy you might pursue INSTEAD of dominance. At 66 percent it might be worth it to spam missionaries to all your friends early, do anything you possibly can to get Open Borders with the fence-sitters later then spam them as well, and lastly just crusade over everyone not smart enough to give in to the Truth and the Way.

Am I wrong? Has someone out there actually managed a religious victory (and not on a Tiny map with only 2 civs, either)?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

Marksmen see stealth, so does the Fire Sphere summining unit ... Sand Lion?

SEnding out an appeal to the Design Team: Please ensure each Civ has some way to obtain Stealth or at least anti-Stealth capability. (Without putting the Civ in debt for two centuries.) It's amajor bummer to have invisible units running through your rear and not being able to do anything about it. (This sentiment inspired by experiences in different game than FfH, but still ... ouch, it hurts ussssssss.)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

free?
magic users take a significant investment to develope

That's why '"free"' was in quotes. They're free once you have the units.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I haven't gotten around to playing all the Neutrals yet, but I played the Ljolsfar (sp?) and noticed they are Good now - must have missed that patch note... but in the midst of that experience, I remembered the LAST time I played the elves (at least a month ago), in which I tried to get a religious victory. . I think 80 percent dominance is just too much - it is next to impossible to achieve (as opposed to just really really really hard, which I could live with).

In that game I deliberately only founded Leaves and wiped out all the Evil civs first so that hopefully no one would research the Ashen Veil, and there were no Sheiam or Kuriotates, so no Cult to worry about either. So I just had Runes, OO, and the Order to stamp out. I took my empire up to just barely under winning Dominance, switched to Theocracy and used my Inquisitors to cleanse all my cities so I was 100% Runes (I had razed the OO and Runes holy cities when I had the chance, too). I left only 2 rivals alive, both on my continent, both Leaves followers like me. However, the closest I got was 77%, and that was even with all my cities flat-out growing as fast as I could get them to go. I peaked there, and oscillated between 75 and 77 percent for around 50 years before I gave up in disgust and just invaded one of my "friends" to end the game.

If it was something more realistic like, say, 66 percent (just like Dominance), then it might be worth the effort, but otherwise I just don't see the point - the only way I could ever see doing it would be to cheese it out, take people's cities in war, cleanse them, then give 'em back so you don't trigger Dominance - or else turn Dominance right off - but in both cases, you're really just doing it to prove it can be done, not as a alternate strategy you might pursue INSTEAD of dominance. At 66 percent it might be worth it to spam missionaries to all your friends early, do anything you possibly can to get Open Borders with the fence-sitters later then spam them as well, and lastly just crusade over everyone not smart enough to give in to the Truth and the Way.

Am I wrong? Has someone out there actually managed a religious victory (and not on a Tiny map with only 2 civs, either)?

In your Ljo game you must have taken Order or Runes as your state religion. Those will move a Neutral to Good. (Or is it just Order?)

I tend to agreee with you about a religious victory. I tried one in an early game, and came to much the same conclusion. I had Runes in about 90% of the cities and no competitors in my realm, yet I could not get above something like 48-50%. So I shifted gears to a Cultural victory.

 

[BCalchet]

IIRC, one of the Ljosalf leaders have the Good alignment - the other two are Neutral.

I have managed to win a religious victory - Played a small fantasy realm map with three opponents, as the Doviello (enemies were Clan of Embers, Infernals and Sheaim). Nobody researched any religion until I picked up the Veil, and after a bit of spreading... boom, religious victory.

Perhaps is actually measures the percentage of the *world* covered with the religion, instead of the percentage of people? The map I got it on had no water apart from small lakes.

 

[pa12ick]

I was wondering why the Calabim Palace gives "Law" mana, but not "Death". What rationale are you using for the mana from each palace?

 

[Xuenay]

Note that I assume the combat system treats a 30STR vs 20STR battle the same a a !5 vs 10. Both are 3:2 odds in the favor of the attacker. I assume each battle would have the same odds of victory. If the game does NOT work like that, then this idea cannot be used.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615 has detailed analysis on this.

 

[woodelf]

Kael - can we do away with Religion founding techs being able to be acquired via goody huts? Starting a 2nd era game is maddening when a religion is founded in turn 5!

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

How about giving hawks/ravens ability to see invisible? That'd keep them valuable throughout the game, but they would have to be used to see the invisible, so the attacker would have a free turn or two.