FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Silverkiss]

I just played a game with Khazad and I rushed for Runes of Kyllmorph, got the religion then rushed military techs (bronze working, smelting, iron working) then rushed some Dwarven Hammerfists, who, together with Bambur, obliterated all my rivals, who still had warriors and the ocasional hunter defending... o_0

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, I've found that the AI in this game really doesn't favor metalworking techs. I'm not exactly a warmonger, but when I have my 7 Str. Valin seeing all those cities with nothing but two warriros defending them... it's a bit strange.

 

[Sureshot]

for the later tech age starts, the initial units have to be improved, they HAVE to be lol

i just tried a renaissance start, i had 2 archers.. want to know what the barbs sent at me?
camel riders, war chariots, and worse. the barbs even built the trojan horse on the 6th or so turn.

on a renaissance start everyone should at the least be given longbowmen, but they should get flurries if they are to survive.

 

[Jean Elcard]

Goodie Huts are nice feature but they are hugely imbalanced, especially because of the technolgies you can get by popping them. It's not that bad, if you are playing against the AI, but really annoying when you are playing MP and the guy on the other end of the teamspeak channel is getting techs almost each turn and all you are finding is a map of the arctic ocean and an empty hut. That's simpy not fun.

I would suggest to make it impossible to get a whole tech at once. Don't give out more beakers from a hut for a certain tech than it would be possible to gain gold from it. There are many ways in the game to give only a partial tech, so this should be doable.

 

[Sureshot]

for balance in multiplayer games, if you don't like huts (we've liked them in our games, heh), you can just use smartmap and select "no goodies" or some such.

 

[Jean Elcard]

To have no goodie huts at all is only a short time solution until a real solution is found. To get a complete tech from one little tribes hut is simply uber. However, some nations rely on goodie huts, so it would be wrong to remove them completly. I'm thinking of the orcs for example.

 

[Yorgos]

Though I'm sure that this has been pointed out many times in the past, I have to note that something must be done about the air and dimensional spheres. The latter can easily become more useful if we add a "teleport self" level 2 spell, and a stronger (greater range) version for level 3, targetable to other units on the same tile as well. If needed the destination can be limited in the caster's territory (or players with open borders deal) to reduce the spell's offencive strength. In addition this should be easy to code.

BTW, I still think that mithril must become more useful, as I mentioned in a thread I posted about a week ago. A "mithril weapons" and a "mithril armour" promotion (+10% combat each) available with a required building for every unit build with access to mithril is the best option in my opinion.

 

[Maniac]

Re spells, wait for the next phase of FfH.

Re mithril bonuses, Kael says this would duplicate enchantment spells too much.

 

[QES]

I was talking about Mithril and the possibility of "adamantium" in the Resources thread. My idea for making each level of material more beneficial for units was something like a gradiant increase.
Basically. When you've got access to better material, you need to arm and equip less troops to effectively reach the same level of combat readiness. In this, since there is already a "doubles production" function for possessing a certain type of resource, it wouldnt be that hard (i hope) to code in a increase in production speed depending on the level of material owned.

For example, a copper requiring unit such as the axeman costs X amount. IF one owns iron, then perhaps axeman are produced 10-20% faster. If mithril is owned, perhaps they're built another 10%-20% faster. In this, its representing not "increases in str" per unit, but instead the decrease in the numbers of troops to reach the same unit str.

A copper reqruing unit would be accessable with copper, and increase in production speed with iron and Mithril/Adamanitum
An Iron requiring unit would be accessable with Iron and increase production speed with Mithril/Adamantium
Mithril/Adamantium requiring units would never recieve production bonuses.

In this, fodder units are produced better and faster because of the access to material.

My idea for a differentiation in Mithril and Adamantium is simple. Melee and "Heavy Calvary" units would be amung the "adamantium" beneficiaries. This would of course, mean that we need a all-civ selection of heavier cavalry.
Mithril would benefit Archers, Light Cavalry and Recon units that depended on metal. In this, Mithril represents the best metal available to "flexible and mobile" units, and adamantium is the best for Heavy and Assult units.

A units requirement list would look like this:

Axeman (bronzeworking)
Needs training Yard, Requires Copper OR Iron OR Adamantium
+10% Production with Iron
+10% Production with Adamantium

Or Even units that dont have material REQUIREMENTS, might still benefit from better available material.

Longbowman
-need bowyers and archery range
+10% Prodcution with Iron
+10% Production with Mithril

It strikes me that "weaponsmith" and "armorsmith" are redundant. Since units are being armed and armored, its it not assumed that there are already smiths of this kind in the given city? We are, perhaps talking about "grand masters" of their craft. Perhaps these should be made into National wonders instead of common buildings. And in that particular city they could provide some unique bonus.

GrandMaster Weaponsmith (National Wonder)
+2 XP for units built in this city
WIth Mithril - Provides Blitz Promotion to (Mithral Benefiting) units built in this city
with Adamantium - +1 Str to (Adamantium benefiting) units built in this city

GrandMaster Armorsmith (National Wonder)
+2 XP for units built in this city
with mithril - Provides commando to (Mithral) units built in this city
with adamantium - Provides stoneskin promotion to (Adamantium) units built in this city

Thoughts?
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I do certainly like the idea of weaponsmith and armorsmith being made into national units. Some of the late game national unit buildings need rethinking, in my opinion. Having weaponsmith, armorsmith, bear totem, thieves guild... just doesn't serve much of a purpose. Just more of a wait until you can build the unit you just spent way too many beakers to research.

 

[QES]

I do certainly like the idea of weaponsmith and armorsmith being made into national units. Some of the late game national unit buildings need rethinking, in my opinion. Having weaponsmith, armorsmith, bear totem, thieves guild... just doesn't serve much of a purpose. Just more of a wait until you can build the unit you just spent way too many beakers to research.

Ya, thats how I feel. What about the nature of material though? (Copper, Iron, Mithril+)
-Qes

 

[Silverkiss]

I dont like Adamantium, because im my mithologic world (the one I play RPGs in) adamantium is a material so strong that not even the Gods can break it

 

[Chandrasekhar]

It sounds alright to me. No pressing need for it, but if it's simple enough to implement, I see no reason to keep it out.

Hm, on the subject of alternate ways to increase happicap by religion, it might be appropriate to mention here that a building available with Metal Casting that gives +1 for each type of strategic metallic resource that you control might be nice. In fact, why not lump this into the weaponsmith/armorsmith instead?

Maybe increased with the weaponsmith, increased with the armorsmith, or some such. Might need to change the names, though.

 

[QES]

I dont like Adamantium, because im my mithologic world (the one I play RPGs in) adamantium is a material so strong that not even the Gods can break it

Perhaps adamantium can only be harvested by some special improvement that is only available to High Priests and Inquisitors to create? That'd fit, no?
-Qes

 

[QES]

It sounds alright to me. No pressing need for it, but if it's simple enough to implement, I see no reason to keep it out.

Hm, on the subject of alternate ways to increase happicap by religion, it might be appropriate to mention here that a building available with Metal Casting that gives +1 for each type of strategic metallic resource that you control might be nice. In fact, why not lump this into the weaponsmith/armorsmith instead?

Maybe increased with the weaponsmith, increased with the armorsmith, or some such. Might need to change the names, though.

I dont know. How does Iron make people happy? Mithril MIGHT, but really its not a luxury resource youd find lying around the house. The happiness is the pretty soldiers walking by all shiny, and there are civics and other methods to make that happiness concept work. I dont think that Metals should have anything to do with happiness. That's a luxury thing.

However, for alternate means of happicap rasing (outside religion and civcs), could not some buildings that provide culture provide happiness? Also, should not "how you treat your citizens" be a large part of the happicap?

Also, for larger happicaps I think that the Hippodrome should be a major contributor (Stadiums are essentailly state methods of increasing happicap).
-Qes

EDIT: This would be a FUNDAMENTAL change, but is it possible to add a "tax rate" slider?
This would NOT be how funds are divided into gold, culture and beakers, but instead a % basis of what you actually tax from the tiles/cities. So, if a tile Can produce 10 gold, that would be turned into 6 beakers, 2 gold and 2 culture this would be standard.

But maybe for every 10% that's NOT being taken out of the lands, the city gets a free happiness.

So at 100% tax rate, thered be no happiness generation (perhaps this should almost always be prohibative)
At 50% you'd be getting 5 happiness per city.

Is this possible?

It is in and of itself, balancing. Because youd be taking direct hits to production for happiness, which would in turn increase production it balances out.

 

[Sureshot]

you already get that from the culture % and the gold % if you have certain buildings tho

 

[QES]

you already get that from the culture % and the gold % if you have certain buildings tho

Good point. Never mind then.
-Qes

EDIT: Ok, what about the classic "entertainer" specialist?
Entertainer - +2 Happy -1 Gold

Maybe the Belseraph get a variant Entertainer:
Mummer - +2 Happy +1 Unhealthiness

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Specialists that give happiness are just asking to be misused. I've seen mods that have tried it, but I haven't seen any I've liked.

 

[QES]

Specialists that give happiness are just asking to be misused. I've seen mods that have tried it, but I haven't seen any I've liked.

Well each specialist is a unused tile, and 1 happiness would pay for himself only. I suppose this could get uber with bonuses to specialists (like +2 culture) but you still gotta feed them. So basically its a trade of foodcap for happicap. Isnt that reasonable?
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Not exactly. Food and happicap are meant to mutually limit each other. A Civ is supposed to need ample amounts of both to flourish. It would also raise some balance issues. You'd see food resources become much, much more useful than they are now, for one thing.