FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Yorgos]

QES, I'm not sure about adamantium, but I definately like your idea about production bonuses with access to iron/mithril. However I don't think I would associate happines with strategic resources.

 

[QES]

QES, I'm not sure about adamantium, but I definately like your idea about production bonuses with access to iron/mithril. However I don't think I would associate happines with strategic resources.

Adamantium is just the alternate of Mithril. I dont want iron/mithril/adamantium to be happiness producers, that was Chand~'s Idea.

Adamantium would simply be the "Mithril-level" material that would benefit melee/assult/heavy cavalry type units. Mithril (as far as my JRRT type understanding goes) is a very light weight material, but very strong for its weight. Essentially, its the main T4 material of mobile/recon/and archer type units. Like a lighter version of iron, Mithril has the same qualities, but less overall mass. Adamantium, is supposed to be as heavy (if not a little heavier) than steel. However its hardness makes it VERY difficult to work with, and nearly indestructable. Material, like armor, weapons and well, golems, would be lighter. So a peice of armor would be more comfortable and felxable, a weapon would be easier to wield and drain less stamina, and a Golem would be light for its size, and most likely faster. Adamantium weighs a bit more than iron per volume - but refined it's strength is unparallelled. In theory a sheet of adamantium should never break. Despite what kind of weapon attacks it. Unless of course another adamantium weapond did the attacking. In D&D this is done through their damage reduction system. Here I'm merely advocating that its the 4th Tier material for "heavy armored" troops. Copper being 2nd, and iron being 3rd. IF you need mobility, adamantium is generally too restrictive - it's tank armor. If your a tank, you'd need far more layers of mithril to offer the same protection. Etc.

The idea here, is essentially specialization and availability adaptation.
-Qes

 

[Silverkiss]

I think in JRRT mithos mithril was a lot more resistend than steel.... And still lighter....

 

[QES]

I think in JRRT mithos mithril was a lot more resistend than steel.... And still lighter....

Right. Adamantium is merely EVEN STRONGER but not lighter.
-Qes

 

[Silverkiss]

Is there Adamantium in JRRT mithos ? I never heard of it.... (in JRRT world)

 

[QES]

Is there Adamantium in JRRT mithos ? I never heard of it.... (in JRRT world)

My extrapolation and interpritation of Mithril is from the JRRT world, however Adamantium is a creation unto D&D. They stole (and realatively nerfed) Mithril in D&D, but they added the notion of adamantium to make up for it.

I'm merely trying to "Equate" the two, and introduce it to the FfH world.
Mithril = Fast, nimble, strong
Adamantium = Slower, unstoppable, bulky.

In theory, one wouldnt have an advantage over the other. Both have their "Spheres of influence".
-Qes

 

[Silverkiss]

Right... But still.... Well its all up to Kael if he implements or not, but If I was him I wouldn´t, adamantine sounds too indestructible/divine/powerfull too me.

 

[Kael]

Admantium, wouldn't Wolverine be upset?

In all seriousness we probably won't introduce a new ore unless we introduce T5 units (no plans of that). And if we did it would probably be a localized resource (ie: hell bonus) or a combined resource (ie: mithril + entropy mana = daemonfyr or whatever).

 

[QES]

Admantium, wouldn't Wolverine be upset?

In all seriousness we probably won't introduce a new ore unless we introduce T5 units (no plans of that). And if we did it would probably be a localized resource (ie: hell bonus) or a combined resource (ie: mithril + entropy mana = daemonfyr or whatever).

Only if you introduce mutants into FfH without him.

My Goals of two t4 materials were simply to seperate and create further specialization. It would not require much effort, and would benefit only if a "heavy cavalry" line was really introduced. Not to mention that normal/standard melee would be adamantium not mithril, where as archers and the like would benefit from mithril. I dunno, i just have in my head the "gleaming beautiful nature" of mithril. And i dont particularly like the idea of Orcs and Barbarians and discusting melee units using them. They're for arhcers, and graceful warriors. The Elves, the Lanun, the dwarves as well, because at least they respect the material. But the savage species shouldn't be using it, theirs should be another sort of uber metal. - Adamantium.
-Qes

EDIT: Always comes down to a form of tree huggery doenst it?

 

[Silverkiss]

LoL im my mind savage creatures wouldn´t use mithril nor adamantium lol, both are too beatufiul, powerfull, and etc to them to understand

 

[Yorgos]

QES, I meant I doubt how it will work in the game (I know what they are, I've read Tolkien - in English, not a silly translation - and I have my share of D&D RPG's). It sounds interesting, but I don't support the idea to add more features just to make a mod look more glamorous. If specialization improves the gameplay, then let's add Adamantium. Otherwise, less is more. I'm not sure about the impact of this resource, what do you people think?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I've noticed a lot of complaints about the Drown being able to block off a coastal city. I have no problems with them being able to rise out of the deep and snag an unweary ship or three, but point defense doesn't seem to suit them. Would you consider giving a minus 25-50% coastal defense to them, Kael?

 

[Draconian]

Isn't guardian of nature somewhat overpowered when you have access to elven workers?
I used it in my last game where I was playing Sheaim and founded leaves. At turn 250 (normal speed) all my cities where allmost completely surrounded by forests/ancient forests, most of them improved. You can easily get +10 and more happiness in each city, you only need some priests of the leaves for the bloom spell and elven workers (very easy to capture with movement 4 rangers). On top of that you get +1 hammer and +0,5 health on every tile where you can plant a forest. When they change to ancient forests you get +1 food aswell.

That happiness bonus is just insane, +1 for every jungle/forest/ancient forest in the city radius. Look at the screenshot at the end of this post...

Replacing old improvements with forest+improvement is no problem: use a group of a warrior, a priest and 3-4 elven workers. Pillage+bloom+build. You "lose" the improvement for 2 turns, but after the forest has matured you gain all those bonuses. The only improvements that cannot easily be replaced are towns. But you aren't going to have that many towns by the time you get priests.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Imagine the population you could get with nothing but farm/ancient forests... and combine that with a philosophical leader... that would be a GP powerhouse. Of course, a bunch of plains/ancient forest/cottages would be pretty scary, too.

Ancient forests with elven workers are just too powerful. Seeing this sort of thing, I don't think building in them is a very balanced ability.

 

[Draconian]

Yeah, ancient forest/grassland/farm with sanitation should be 5/1/0. Each of those tiles would be able support 1,5 specialists. At 20 worked tiles that would be 30 specialists. Assuming you have enough happiness and health.

 

[Silverkiss]

Wich if you have Guardian of Nature, you have.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Isn't guardian of nature somewhat overpowered when you have access to elven workers?

IMO: Yes.

IMO the ability to build cottages etc inside forests is simply an unworkable idea. If only one realm has the ability, it will be an absolute bear to balance it out. If all realms have the abiity, it trivializes the very planning and decision-making that makes Civ the successful game it is. IMO the design team is going to expend a lot of time and energy trying to balance out the concept of improvements built inside forests. Since IMO this is an unsolvable problem, IMO most of that energy will probably be for nought.

I am using IMO a lot, because IMO I have pissed off much of the community already making these points. IMO if I stress my comments are merely opinion and not the Given Word of God people tend to be a bit less pissed off. But it is still a tender subject around here. IMO. But from where I sit, it is still nice to hear the occasional player shares the same O.

You can be assured that Kael and Ko. are definitely aware that this opinion exists. I have no idea what their opinions are, but it's pretty safe to say they've heard this questions raised before.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Precisely. What's worse; a 2/1/4 fully developed cottage tile with Arcane Lore, or a 5/1/0 tile with... just sanitation, hidden paths, and elven workers, right? The cottage tile doesn't provide happiness and health for itself, either.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I have to disagree with you, Unser, about cottages in forests, period, though. In earlier patches, it was ridiculous. More recently, though, the longer time it takes to build them is a bit of a balancing factor.

Elves: not too powerful at start because slower workers equal slower starts, it balances itself out somewhat.

Overlords: perhaps a bit too powerful here, because they can get elven slaves so easily. But specific, nonetheless.

Everyone else: capturing elven workers is enough of a hassle that the increased benefits of cottages are probably alright.

Note: I think we can agree on one thing, though. Cottages in ancient forests, not good. Health and happiness from cottages in forests, period, not good. Health and happiness from cottages in ancient forests... I don't even have to say.

P.S. IMO

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I have to disagree with you, Unser, about cottages in forests, period, though. In earlier patches, it was ridiculous. More recently, though, the longer time it takes to build them is a bit of a balancing factor.

Elves: not too powerful at start because slower workers equal slower starts, it balances itself out somewhat.

Overlords: perhaps a bit too powerful here, because they can get elven slaves so easily. But specific, nonetheless.

Everyone else: capturing elven workers is enough of a hassle that the increased benefits of cottages are probably alright.

Note: I think we can agree on one thing, though. Cottages in ancient forests, not good. Health and happiness from cottages in forests, period, not good. Health and happiness from cottages in ancient forests... I don't even have to say.

P.S. IMO

I'll be quite happy, delighted, to see all my skepticism go for nought. But I just can't see it happening. If elven 'flavor' was all that was wanted, then the ability to build Plantations inside forests would be both flavorful and would actually provide a nice, meaningful early game boon. The ability to put an improvement down inside every forest tile is not flavor, it is like making a meal out of a 8 oz. can of nutmeg. When someone says they like eating cans of nutmeg, it's time to suspect it's something other than the flavor they like.

IMO.

PS: This nutmeg alanlogy is brought to you as an homage to a highschool friend of mine who once ate himself up just such a can of nutmeg. He'd heard it was a mild haluicinogen and wanted to put it to the test. His results in that department were inconclusive, but he was able to report that it induced a great deal of vomiting. (With a particularly evil vomit-aftertaste, he'd hastenen to add.) I learned just today that he passed away some 5-6 years ago, presumably of non-nutmeg-related causes. I'm old, but not that , so it was a bit of a shock. So Carl, this analogy is for you, where ever you are. I suspect he'd rather be offered ice water, if you catch my drift.