FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Draconian]

How are summoner trait nightmares any worse than mass produced combat 5 golems or any of the other Civ-specific benefits?

If you lose a regular unit you need hammers to replace it, if you lose a summon you lose next to nothing. You can summon it again with full health on the next turn.

If you know what you are doing it's impossible to lose a stack of summoning conjurers vs the same numer of tier 3 units (unless they have blitz which is far away). The tier 3 units might have a higher strength but you have 3x their number in summons. Just use the summons from the first 2 turns to attack and the new ones to defend your conjurers. Even if no enemy unit dies from the attack they still can't kill a single conjurer on their turn. They will be damaged after fighting 2x their numbers in summons and on your next turn you can attack again (or they attack which leads to the same result). Eventually the tier 3 units will go down without ever fighting a conjurer. And for every tier 3 unit that gets killed you have one more summon per turn you can use for attacking instead of defending.

If they decide to hide in a city you just pillaging every tile in sight with no risk to your conjurers.

 

[BCalchet]

How are summoner trait nightmares any worse than mass produced combat 5 golems or any of the other Civ-specific benefits?

No risk at execution. Even if attack after attack fails completely, I've lost no unit I've actually paid for unless you somehow manage to reach the conjurers with enough units to kill them, after they've summoned and sent the summons away. If you take longer, one cast of escape and they're safe.

Too large a hammer. One turn of summons isn't bad. Two turns - powerful, but not overly so. *Three* turns, however... you'd need many many defenders not to get worn down by these kinds of stacks.

They're also a bit too versatile, since they pillage as well as any cavalry unit among other things. (Such as being amazing defenders with Fear.)

 

[Sureshot]

i think summoned units being able to pillage is a bit off

about units costing production, production isnt a big deal if you follow that line (you'll have forges, mining early on, access to high production resources like iron). when ive played the dwarves and gone the iron working route i don't end up with some problem outputting units. i can make a 7 strength hammerfist with 2 free promotions and starting with combat 1 as well, in 1 turn.

the biggest problem ends up being maintenance, as in, how many you can have at one time, so i usually end up attacking anything with them just to get them leveled up quickly because they are dispensible, and usually have too many. but about maintenance, that requires gold, and i don't need to spend gold just to get them to that state, it takes 1 turn to make them, not 1 turn to make then time to level up then gold to upgrade like it does with conjurers.


but really, im much more worried about people making tons of confessors than i am of people making conjurers, atleast when you kill a conjurer you've removed some effort, confessors can be made in a turn or two and start off with the ability to kill stacks pretty much, and they don't give out mass xp in the process.

 

[Pelaka]

A few points to balance summoning (and spell casting in general).

1. Make spell casting require 1 movement point. The ability to do a full move, then summon, then have the summons do a full move to attack gives a stack of summoners way too much home defense power.

2. Consider changing the summoner trait from 3 turns of summoners to all summons have +1 strength. Having what amounts to a "triple cast" ability makes the summoning trait much more powerful then any other trait. This would also remove my ability to destroy cities from half a map away using stacks of chaos marauders.

3. Change imps/djinn so they can only gain buff spells known by their summoner.

4. Balance the summons better. A 7/2 chaos maurader versus a 3/2 tiger vs a 3/1 skelleton is silly. If you want such disparity, at least give them meaningful restrictions (such as sand lions requiring desert).

Pel

 

[Kael]

A few points to balance summoning (and spell casting in general).

1. Make spell casting require 1 movement point. The ability to do a full move, then summon, then have the summons do a full move to attack gives a stack of summoners way too much home defense power.

This is about impossible for the AI to understand.

2. Consider changing the summoner trait from 3 turns of summoners to all summons have +1 strength. Having what amounts to a "triple cast" ability makes the summoning trait much more powerful then any other trait. This would also remove my ability to destroy cities from half a map away using stacks of chaos marauders.

Thats very doable, but a less interesting mechanic.

3. Change imps/djinn so they can only gain buff spells known by their summoner.

What use is castign a spell to get a unit that may have an ability to cast a spell your caster could have cast hismelf in the first place?

4. Balance the summons better. A 7/2 chaos maurader versus a 3/2 tiger vs a 3/1 skelleton is silly. If you want such disparity, at least give them meaningful restrictions (such as sand lions requiring desert).

You are comparing a temporary summon (chaos maurauder) with permanent summons (tiger and skeleton). Also the tiger and the skeleton arent summon spells (they are permanent). The skeleton is an adept spell and the tiger is a mage spell. Conjurer's will always have better summons than mages.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I'd like to bring up a point made by xanaqui42 back on page 23 or so:

Presently, Ljosalfar's builders can build Cottage and Farm in (Ancient)Forest. I consider this a powerful ability, and would propose that different improvemetns are used instead, so that they can be balanced seperately considering the fact that there's also a forest in the tile.

Proposal:
Elven Farm -> Berry Orchard (+1 Food) - This would not be affected by the technology and other affects on Farms. Also, I'd tend to place this a bit later on the tech tree.
Elven Cottage - Make this its own Improvement (+1 coin), change it so that it becomes an Elven Hamlet (+2 coins) in 30 turns, and once again, don't have later technologies improve its effect.

I'm not sure about the solution, but the problem is definitely there. In my last game, I had 5 cities with over 25 population, none of which had any farms, except for on wheat/rice. Every non-special space was a town. I wasn't even really trying for this; it just happened.

I think there are two problems with this: one of balance, another of flavor. On the balance issue, having allmost all of your tiles with 3 food, 2 hammers and four commerce is just too powerful. On the flavor issue, it seems strange that the elves would have the largest populations in the game. Normally elves are few and far between -- a society of elite. Is this how we want the elves?

So there are two things to think about: the ancient forests and what elves can build on forests. I think ancient forests are super cool and wouldn't want to do away with them. What about giving them extra production, extra commerce or both? I personally like the idea of +1 commerce. This would give them a science advantage but not a population advantage.

Similarly, I agree that it would be nice if what the elves built on forests. And if it had its own graphics, awesome.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I've always liked the idea of ancient forests giving +1 to elves, but +1 to everyone else (because otherwise they're too weak to be worthwhile).

 

[bdmarti]

On the flavor issue, it seems strange that the elves would have the largest populations in the game. Normally elves are few and far between -- a society of elite. Is this how we want the elves?

It might be interesting if most tier 2 and up elvish units gained experience like mages but cost more to build...like 50% - 100% more. There would be less elvish units, but they would all be powerful.

In any case, I agree that huge populations of elves feels a bit wrong.

 

[Quetz]

I really like the ideas quoted there for elven improvements.

That sucks that the AI can't handle the move/cast mechanic, but they dont seem to handle summons all that well as it is anyways :/

How about something like a Ring of Warding at Knowledge of the Ether, that has a medium build time, causes an unhappiness due to fear, or something.. and has a 20% chance to stop a summoned unit? I'm sure flavor text would be easy to think up, for a civ just coming into knowledge of the arcane, and of the dangers it could pose..

 

[QES]

Stop hating on the elves. Everyone should focus on making other civs more powerful, not the elves less so .
-Qes

 

[Hypnotoad]

I'm not sure if this is a balance issue or an incompetence issue or a playstyle issue...

But I find the Vampire governor specialists kind of useless. I never use them. It is hard to build a governor's mansion, so I'm not going to use the culture to expand borders. But if I really care about culture, I'm likely to use an artist. Similarly, for its other benefits -- if I really needed them, I'd do something else. But the real thing is that the governor doesn't generate any great people points. This is what normally really makes specialists worthwhile, at least for me.

What would be really cool is if there were a great vampire great person. Baring this, I would think they should get a boost to their benefits or generate great people points (one great commander?).

I'm not quite sure what a great vampire would do, though. But I'm sure we could come up with options. Perhaps he could create a building that gives vampires that come from it more experience. Or give a single vampire unit a lot of experience. But neither of those are very exciting options.

 

[QES]

I'm not sure if this is a balance issue or an incompetence issue or a playstyle issue...

But I find the Vampire governor specialists kind of useless. I never use them. It is hard to build a governor's mansion, so I'm not going to use the culture to expand borders. But if I really care about culture, I'm likely to use an artist. Similarly, for its other benefits -- if I really needed them, I'd do something else. But the real thing is that the governor doesn't generate any great people points. This is what normally really makes specialists worthwhile, at least for me.

What would be really cool is if there were a great vampire great person. Baring this, I would think they should get a boost to their benefits or generate great people points (one great commander?).

I'm not quite sure what a great vampire would do, though. But I'm sure we could come up with options. Perhaps he could create a building that gives vampires that come from it more experience. Or give a single vampire unit a lot of experience. But neither of those are very exciting options.

What if the "Vampiric Govenor" Gave +1 Xp (per govenor) to units with the "Vampiric" promotion within a city? You build a vampire with 3 vamipric govenors in said city, that vampire begins its life with 3 extra xp?
-Qes

 

[Hypnotoad]

What if the "Vampiric Govenor" Gave +1 Xp (per govenor) to units with the "Vampiric" promotion within a city? You build a vampire with 3 vamipric govenors in said city, that vampire begins its life with 3 extra xp?
-Qes

Well, I think the max you can have is two: one for the palace and one for having a mansion. But more importantly, this would favor micromanaging because if you were about to build a vampire it would make sense to make the governor a specialist for the last turn so that it got the experience. Then revert him to whatever his old task was.

Perhaps the vampire governor could make it so one angry citizen goes back to work, representing the governor exerting influence over the population. Again, this might favor micromanaging...

 

[QES]

FOR ANCIENT TEMPLES:

I want something different and more flavorful. I like the idea of special spells, that can ONLY BE CAST when on a Ancient Temple. Maybe they've focus or something, that can hone a spell. Allow certain units/hero/casters to preform special spells depending on the availability of mana, to produce cool ritualistic effects. Perhaps the Rituals as "wonders" should be replaced with spell casting on Anceient tempmles - Perhaps it places some sort of "Shrine" improvement on the temple, so it can not be done again in the game (the shrine would be unpillageable). Basicaly, adepts or the like could build special improvments (which for flavor are actually massive spells), that take X amount of turns and return the result of those rituals already in place (and the future ones to be added).

Wouldnt that be cool?
-Qes

 

[QES]

Well, I think the max you can have is two: one for the palace and one for having a mansion. But more importantly, this would favor micromanaging because if you were about to build a vampire it would make sense to make the governor a specialist for the last turn so that it got the experience. Then revert him to whatever his old task was.

Perhaps the vampire governor could make it so one angry citizen goes back to work, representing the governor exerting influence over the population. Again, this might favor micromanaging...

Thats a good point. <Shrug> back to the drawing board.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Make an angry citizen go back to work? Isn't that the same as adding one to the happycap?

 

[Silverkiss]

No, its taking out one of the unhappy points (ya... same effect )

 

[Hypnotoad]

I'm not making them happy. I'm making them work.

In my last game the Red Dragon was on a continent with no civs on it. I eventually got to it and attacked -- 98.5% chance of success. Not a lot of drama. What about lowering her strength a bit and giving her hero? That way if you run into her later in the game, she's more powerful. And there is further incentive to go after her quick.

Also: The -20% Great person thing seems weird for Sacrafice the Weak. My impression was the Veil was the evil genius type religion to the Order's frothing at the mouth evil. When a religion is got to through meditation... (I meant Octopus Overlords in place of Order and was corrected by Knight...)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Hey! The Order is frothing at the mouth Good!

Vamp governers could add +1 hammer to unhappy citizens? So that they aren't exactly at the most productive, but they are doing some menial task.
But I think I'm stealing QES' idea.

 

[Maniac]

If you had unhappy citizens as the Calabim, wouldn't you just eat them?