FfH2 0.15 Bugs

[khanjackal]

i had the issue with hundreds of unaccounted for dead summons in one specific game

i figured it had to be that i was the order, had my 3 high priests, and 3 inquisitors at the front lines pillar-of-firing cities

i figure that maybe conjurers in the city were summoning tons of units, not moving them out as strength 3 and 4 units are not going out near my shield walls and immortals, and got caught by 6 pillars a turn

it's the only theory i could come up with, that doesn't involve me getting credit for their summons croaking after a turn

 

[retro V]

OK, what can you do in this situation:

For five straight turns EVERY blasted units withdrew from battle with the Red Dragon.

Level 1 Spirit mana: Courage. Cast it on a whole stack, hand them the red dragon sauce and bon appetit!

 

[Xuenay]

Another bug discovered during MP, though I believe it applies to single player as well: player one casts Entangle on a large stack of enemy units. Part of the units in the stack resist the spell. An attempt to move the whole stack will crash the game (occasionally bringing the entire OS down with it, forcing a reboot).

Oh - as a thought about fixing this, I'd suggest changing Entangle so that it always gives the units affected a flat 0 movement remaining, if possible. I suspect that it's the odd "-997 movement remaining" that messes up the game.

 

[goodgulf]

Earlier I posted the following "bugs" and haven't heard any "official" word as to their status. I'd strongly suggest again a bugzilla somewhere, it will make bug tracking SOOOO much easier.

So, here's my take on the 4 "bugs" I mentioned:

1) I read somewhere that "Forester gives a bonus on attack as well as defense" (I think on the wiki). By forester, I assume this means Woodsman. I was not able to confirm this with the odds display.

Didn't hear anything about this one yet. I'm working on it locally to find out if it's that woodsman doesn't apply to attacking, or it does, and the odds display doesn't show it.

2) Woodsmen II is available to archery units, but Woodsmen I (a requirement of Woodmsen II) is not. Also, since warriors can upgrade to Elven Archers, but Elven Swordsmen cannot, I find myself building warriors to give them the Woodsmen I promotion, then paying to convert them to Archers, so I can get them Woodsmen II. (This also means Gilden Silveric, that Legendary Elven Hero who single-handedly destroyed the Calabim Vampire Clans, cannot get Woodsman, for example, despite being Level 14.) Something is just not right here, flavor wise.

This one's an easy patch:

--- CIV4PromotionInfosOrig.xml  2006-08-26 22:15:20.000000000 -0700
+++ CIV4PromotionInfos.xml      2006-10-01 11:16:04.515000000 -0700
@@ -14902,6 +14902,10 @@
                     <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
                     <bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
                 </UnitCombat>
+                <UnitCombat>
+                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
+                    <bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
+                </UnitCombat>
             </UnitCombats>
             <HotKey></HotKey>
             <bAltDown>0</bAltDown>

3) Bloom and Spring do not work on Flood Plain/Desert squares. This may be by design, but I'd like to petition for a change here. It is fully possible for plains and forest to be by rivers, and, as the Elven player, if you have the bad luck like I did to get smacked down in the middle of a desert by a river, it sucks to have to leave half your land unforested. The 7 flood plain squares surrounding my capital are an unsightly blight on what is otherwise a beautiful and ancient forest, stretching from sea to sea.

I got a possible "by design" for this one. I may look into giving you guys a patch that will have bloom and scorch (but probably not vitalize) wipe out any feature that may be present on the terrain at the time, and you can take it or leave it (or tell me not to waste my time).

4) Finally, this may be core game related, but I can build Elven Cottages on Grass/Hill/Forest squares, but not on Plains/Hill/Forest squares for some reason. I dont think I have a Plains/Hill/Ancient Forest yet, so I can't check that.

Definitely by design, as this is food related.

And finally, a new potential bug:
Fireballs and Meteors seem to be affected by terrain (have less range when fired over desert than over plains).


Thanks

 

[Kael]

1. From the changelog from 0.16:

13. Feature attack bonus's are now displayed correctly in combat odds.

2. Woodsman 1 isnt available to archers but woodsman 2 is so that most archers cant get access to the woodsman promotions. Only those that start with woodsman 1 (archer of leaves) can learn woodsman 2.

3. We considered a few options on this:

[tab]a. Turn the desert/flood plains into a plains/flood plains. Result: to big a boost, creates a super tile. This is possible with druids but creates a balance issue if players can do it with adepts.

[tab]b. Turn the desert/flood plains into a plains (with no flood plains). Result: This is actually a bad move for the player. Some players will enjoy it because they are looking for an asethedic instead of efficient layout but for most it will be a noob trap (and option that punished new players).

[tab]c. Dont allow blooms on flood plains. This is where we are just because choosing eiach of the other options creates an even bigger issue.

4. Thats true. A tile must yeild food on its own before you can place a farm on it. This law applies to both farms and elven farms.

5. I'll check out the fireballs, they shouldnt be effected by terrain movement costs.

 

[goodgulf]

1. From the changelog from 0.16:

Sweet, though I am lame and cannot find the 0.16 changelog (or downloads).

2. Woodsman 1 isnt available to archers but woodsman 2 is so that most archers cant get access to the woodsman promotions. Only those that start with woodsman 1 (archer of leaves) can learn woodsman 2.

Hmmm... so humans' archers of leaves can be adept in the forests, but all those silly elves can't (including Gilden)? Seems thematically backwards. And, keep in mind, I can *get* Elven Archers with woodsmen by keeping one city that has no training yard pump out Elven Warriors with woodsman 1, and then upgrading them to Elven Archers, it's just a pita. Since the loopholes are mostly here (except for poor Gilden), is there any balance issue for why Archers were not given woodsman bonuses, but everyone else is? Could just elven archer units be given woodsman bonuses (we're talking elves here, after all)?

On the flip side, that does make the Archer of Leaves no longer irrelevant (as the elves, I have never built one of those because I wanted the elf bonuses instead, but I may have to rethink now that they can get woods).

Just seems kinda sad that, once woodsman affects attacking, my best unit for jumping on guys in my forests will not be my elven archers, but my elven... macemen(!?). Yeah, those famous elven macemen that are so prevalent throughout fantasy. [BTW, would you consider flipping "maceman" and "swordsman" so that as you get to the higher techs the Swordsmen are actually better melee units than macemen? I know that reverses the base game, but again, just something that might be thematically pleasing. Maces/clubs/etc. tend to be more of a peasant weapon than a trained soldier weapon, and IMHO the base game got it backwards in its attempt to represent light/medium/heavy inf, etc. It'd just be a name / graphics swap, I'm not suggesting any changes to promo's, etc...]

3. We considered a few options on this:

a. Turn the desert/flood plains into a plains/flood plains. Result: to big a boost, creates a super tile. This is possible with druids but creates a balance issue if players can do it with adepts.

b. Turn the desert/flood plains into a plains (with no flood plains). Result: This is actually a bad move for the player. Some players will enjoy it because they are looking for an asethedic instead of efficient layout but for most it will be a noob trap (and option that punished new players).

Agreed. I noted that doing (b) would actually be a backwards move for anyone *except* the elves, but in wanting to use tile features as defensive improvements, there is a lot of motivation for wanting to do so, not just aesthetics.

c. Dont allow blooms on flood plains. This is where we are just because choosing eiach of the other options creates an even bigger issue.

4. Thats true. A tile must yeild food on its own before you can place a farm on it. This law applies to both farms and elven farms.

My question was referring to cottages, not farms, but yeah, same thing applies.

5. I'll check out the fireballs, they shouldnt be effected by terrain movement costs.

Cool. I'm definitely getting 2-move *meteors* over desert and hills.

Thanks Kael, great work on the mod. Love it. I'm open for work on specific bugs if you guys need another hand.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Sweet, though I am lame and cannot find the 0.16 changelog (or downloads).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171497
Updated often, though not downloadable yet.

 

[goodgulf]

Cool. I'm definitely getting 2-move *meteors* over desert and hills.

NM about the fireballs/meteors. I must have gotten used to 4-move meteors bc of a guy with spell extension, and then the ones going over hills only has range-2 meteors.

The range 2 meteors are going 2 over terrain.

 

[Kael]

NM about the fireballs/meteors. I must have gotten used to 4-move meteors bc of a guy with spell extension, and then the ones going over hills only has range-2 meteors.

The range 2 meteors are going 2 over terrain.

Cool, thanks.

 

[goodgulf]

OK, I think I found the real problem.

Archer of Leaves: when I look at it in the unit list of the city (where you select what you want to build) it says "+1 first strike,starts with elven". In the Sid's Tips it says it starts with "native Woodsman II", but when building it, I get no woodsman promotion out of it, and basically, it is a poor version of a regular Elven Archer.

So it looks like perhaps the bug is with the Archer of Leaves?

 

[Kael]

OK, I think I found the real problem.

Archer of Leaves: when I look at it in the unit list of the city (where you select what you want to build) it says "+1 first strike,starts with elven". In the Sid's Tips it says it starts with "native Woodsman II", but when building it, I get no woodsman promotion out of it, and basically, it is a poor version of a regular Elven Archer.

So it looks like perhaps the bug is with the Archer of Leaves?

K, I'll correct the strategy tag.

 

[goodgulf]

K, I'll correct the strategy tag.

Is it the strategy tag that is wrong, or the lack of the free promtion that is wrong? In looking in the .xls editor, Elven Archer of Leaves gets only the Elven promotion.

So, if that's corrent, then we're back to *no* archers can get woodsman.

 

[Kael]

Is it the strategy tag that is wrong, or the lack of the free promtion that is wrong? In looking in the .xls editor, Elven Archer of Leaves gets only the Elven promotion.

So, if that's corrent, then we're back to *no* archers can get woodsman.

Ahh, your right. I'll block archers from getting either promotion.

In fact Im going to make it so only Animal, Beast, Melee and Recon units can learn Woodsman I. And only Beasts and Recon units can learn Woodsman II.

 

[goodgulf]

Ahh, your right. I'll block archers from getting either promotion.

? hmmm that's not exactly what I was shooting for.

My original beef was that archers couldn't get woodsman, except by playing games with the upgrade paths (build elven warriors, get woodsman I and/or II, then pay to upgrade to elven archer untis). Since Woodsman II was available to Archery Units, I figured this was a bug somewhere since no Archery Units could get Woodsman I except by inheriting them from an earlier base unit they upgraded from.

IMHO, *all* elves should be eligible for Woodsman promos (what is a more typically elven unit than an archer?). Is there any reason why archers are prohibited from Woodsman, in general?

 

[Maniac]

? hmmm that's not exactly what I was shooting for.

QFT!
Archer of Leaves should start with Woodsman I.

 

[Grey Fox]

I guess archers arnt viable offensive then...

 

[goodgulf]

ya, kael's explanation that Archer of Leaves starts with Woodsman (and I agree it should prolly be I, not II) and that *those* units could eventually promo to Woodsman II, makes all the sense in the world, and actually gives you a reason to build those units.

Otherwise, without that unique ability, AoL are pretty pointless (yeah, you *COULD* build them without an archery range, but the cost breaks even on the 2nd or 3rd Archer of Leaves, so long term that's another "noob trap", as Kael put it).

I'd say, keep Woodsman I out of the hands of archers (as it is now), leave Woodsman II available to archery units, and add Woodsman I as a free promotion to Archer of Leaves (and then fix the tip text to say Woodsman I instead of Woodsman II):

--- xml/units/CIV4UnitInfos.xml (revision 2)
+++ xml/units/CIV4UnitInfos.xml (working copy)
@@ -19058,6 +19058,10 @@
                     <PromotionType>PROMOTION_ELF</PromotionType>
                     <bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
                 </FreePromotion>
+                <FreePromotion>
+                    <PromotionType>PROMOTION_WOODSMAN1</PromotionType>
+                    <bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
+                </FreePromotion>
             </FreePromotions>
         </UnitInfo>

(You can still get all other archery units with Woodsman I by upgrading them from warriors, but that is a core-game issue).

 

[Kael]

Woodsman became a lot more powerful when the bonus started working offensivly, hence the restrictions on it.

All elves have a bonus attacking into woods, it comes with the elf promotion. As is the elven swordsman is a better unit for assaulting forests, and the elven archer better for defending forests. Although elven archers are better at attacking forests than normal archers.

I dont mind the "multi-classing" of borrowing promotions from other unit-combats. I think its an interesting side effect that helps make units more unique and it isnt so powerful as to incent players to go through the trouble of underbuilding and managing class switching (though if you really want to, more power to you). The only case I would like to change one of these days is that enchants get passed on that should be there. Someday I'll fix that.

And I agree with your statement about having elven swordsmen over macemen. But it think it would cause more confusion for casual players than it would gain us in flavor.

 

[Maniac]

I dont mind the "multi-classing" of borrowing promotions from other unit-combats. I think its an interesting side effect that helps make units more unique and it isnt so powerful as to incent players to go through the trouble of underbuilding and managing class switching (though if you really want to, more power to you).

It gives the AI a relative disadvantage though.

 

[Kael]

It gives the AI a relative disadvantage though.

Assuming that its a significant advantage. I dont know that it is. You trade gold for the ability to get some irregular promotions on a unit. There is nothing inherently broken about an archer with woodsman ii, so I dont know that it puts the ai at a disadvantage.