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FfH2 0.33 Changelog

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. Avahz Darkwood

    Avahz Darkwood Chieftain

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    So will the AI be willing to make mages and archmages now or is that still limited to players only?

    (yah angels can now use weapons =)
     
  2. Vanion

    Vanion Chieftain

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    Sounds awesome. I'm especially looking forward to the AI tweaks, but there's a lot of exciting stuff in there, including performance improvements. New art is always a very welcome sight, too.

    Also, great to see that Cephalo's mapscript made it into the release at last.
     
  3. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Yeah, from a flavor perspective it works so well for the Kuriotates. But it doesn't mesh with the Sprawling trait at all. At first we were goign to make the Kuriotates the Tolerant civ and move their Sprawling trait to another civ. But we backed off of that because everything in the Kuriotates design is because of sprawling (special buildings, centaurs, huge late hero) so moving the trait would mean a design challenge for the civ that recieved it and for the Kuriotates.

    So we looked for other civs that we could see as allowing local customs to remain and the elohim were the next best choice. They also suffer from being very bland wthout a significant gameplay mechanic or uu's. So it made for a great fit both on the flavor and on the function.

    The trait rewards warmongering, so its a little odd for the elohim. But placing it in a civ thats good are warmongering makes it to powerful. The nice thing about implmeneting it as a trait is that its easy to move around. I'll be interested to hear the playtest feedback once people have a chance to play with it.
     
  4. Skitters

    Skitters Chieftain

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    ...will Perpentech and/or the Adaptive trait ever be allowed to be tolerant? And if so, what happens should the trait change?
     
  5. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

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    I think Sprawling would fit well for the Malakim. Because Settlements don't produce anything, it wouldn't matter if all the surrounding terrain was Desert. And many have stated a desire for a greater synergy between Malakim and Desert.
     
  6. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    No, it isnt a pickable trait. If you allowed the player to change this trait it would invalidate all the things this trait allowed them to build (like building something that requires a resource but losing the resource halfway through). Thats also one of the reasons we dont allow the individual city culture to determine which build orders they have access to (we'd hate to have it switch off half-way through). Culture driven build orders are also frustrating because players like to make plans for their empire and its hard to do when the city changes and you lose the ability to make what you were planning (sliding scale problems).
     
  7. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    If the Elohim capture a Khazad City, will the doKhazadTurn update the captured Dwarven Vault properly (based on Elohim Gold Per City), strangely (based on Khazad Gold per City), or not at all (stagnant at whatever vault level you captured)?


    Kind of sad to see the Gypsy Wagon removed. I just got done writing code to easily move their effects into the SDK and allow them to stack, was hoping to maybe get you to slide it in with a .33 release :( Ah well :)

    EDIT: Another question on Tolerance: Does it modify the chances of buildings being destroyed when the Elohim capture a city? It seems like it ought to, especially since many buildings are only destroyed because they are Civ Specific.

    Hrm... what happens if they capture an Infernal City? Can they get Demonic Citizens (they aren't THAT tolerant!)?
     
  8. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I take it this stops units from purchasing any usually-unpurchasable promotion which it normally stars with?
    Can these stack now? I hope so. Ideally I'd like unhappy citizens handled just like specialists so you could edit a lot of things. (For example, they could generate GPP for a great person type that you would not want to get.)
    Care to Share any more details?
    I don't like this. The Elohim are already too good as a militant civ, and this would only encourage more conquests. I don't see the Elohim as being tolerant enough of other cultures to build Vampires, Pyre Zombies, or any Infernal units either.

    I'm still thinking the Elohim leaders should have the Spiritual trait (they are the spirit civ after all, so they should either have the trait or the trait name should be changed to "Zelous" or something), but 4 traits per leader would be too much.

    Lastly, I don't think that who built a city should have much bearing on who lives there or what it should build. Build orders should really depend on the city's dominant culture. I'd rather that be a game option, and the presence of this trait makes that seem less likely to happen.

    (Tolerant would also make much more sense for the Kuriotates, and if it went by Culture it wouldn't be so bad combined with Sprawling. You might need to change their world spell though.


    I was actually thinking recently that it could be good to get rid of Settlements altogether, and instead make Sprawling work like Jeckel's JCityLimit modcomp, and also add his JCultureControl modcomp to let improvements extend cultural borders.)
    Awesome. I expect to use these quite a bit.
    Well, I never used this one anyway.
    Any details?
    How does this differ from a normal Pagan Temple?
    Why remove these?
    Very nice. Do these work like the PythonPostCombatLost/Won and PyPerTurn? What files are these in, just CIV4UnitInfos.xml?
    Very nice, so long as nothing is hardcoded and <PyRequirement> still exists for modmoders to use.
    I rarely used it. You might want to consider changing ships entirely, perhaps borrowing from ORBI modmod


    Including Sprawling trait leaders?
    Do these mean more python hardcoding (which I've always hated) or did you move to a system that weights things by alignment?
    Promotions should really play a part in power ratings too. The AI always tends to underestimate small elite armies, and thus attack when they have no real chance to win.


    I still think Hyborem (and Basium) should have more traits than most leaders. Changing Expansive to Spiritual is a good start, but why not also add Aggressive, Arcane, Raiders, Charismatic, etc.
    Frankly I don't see how either of these is thematically appropriate. Arcane seems most appropriate, but of course that might leave Os-Gabella and Tebyrn with the same traits.
    This still seems awfully weak. For starters, I think that this civic should grant a significant amount of free xp in cities with the state religion.
    The old bonuses never made sense. I think I still prefer my change of making it slow military production and boost the GPP rate.
    A needed change.
    I'm not sure I like making Yvain a Treant. The lore change gets in the way of a character I'd made and was considering for my modmod

    I'm of the opinion that the Illians and maybe Doviello War Elephants should get Mammoth Rider graphics from AoI.
     
  9. JDexter

    JDexter Chieftain

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    Very nice changes again.

    I'm very excited about the tolerant trait and all the new graphics and balancing changes (I think it's great that you remove bloaty, un-fun things!).

    Great that the Creation map script is now included, too!
     
  10. Fenboy

    Fenboy Chieftain

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    Doviello already have the AoI rider graphic without the mammoth skin, so I'm not sure that's a needed change. I'm with you on the Illians though, including the mammoth part. Kael's said before that Mammoth Riders will be making a return in Ice, so maybe we'll see them there.

    Any word on who made the new units and buildings which don't have their designer alongside them?
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Its mostly just my fiddling, don't expect to much. A lot comes from seZ's art but bits and pieces of his old work that I found to fit into a particular niche. Its not at all like the speciality units he makes.

    For example it bothered me that when i made a Sheaim war elephant I had the normal war elephant driver sitting in the basket. So I took one of seZ's Sheaim units, took off a couple detail pieces (so it looked a little different) and stuck him in the basket instead. It looks a lot better but it isn't anywhere close to what seZ would make (the elephant would be all deathed out with big gold earings, tatoos and dark images).
     
  12. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian A mad God's dying dream

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    Maybe you could punish warmongers for playing Elohim "out of character" by implementing an addidional 25% to war weariness.
     
  13. kenneth

    kenneth Chieftain

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    does tolerant trait work on unit upgrades, eg upgrading your normal elohim adepts to amurites mages in a captured amurite city.
     
  14. marioflag

    marioflag History Addict

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    Seconded. In my opinion it would destroy their flavour if there aren't limits on their tolerance ;)

    [/QUOTE]I'm of the opinion that the Illians and maybe Doviello War Elephants should get Mammoth Rider graphics from AoI.[/QUOTE]

    It would be really nice!
     
  15. Crazy_Ivan

    Crazy_Ivan Chieftain

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    Sounds good.

    But damn, I'll miss my early mutate and roving gypsy wagons.
     
  16. tharg

    tharg Chieftain

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    Ah that all makes sense now.

    It wont make it trival, just give more options. Like building the sheaim palice to build the tower of necromancy
     
  17. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Chieftain

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    I'm not sure Loki's two new spells will be adequate replacements for the Gypsy Wagon and Gypsy Camp. Loki's only one unit, after all, while you can build many Gypsy Wagons and send them to opposing cities everywhere to build Gypsy Camps and cause a constant drain of culture and gold.
     
  18. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    There were a few reasons the gypsy wagons were cut. In order of importance:

    1. With the addition of puppets and freaks the balseraphs are doing fine on mechanics.

    2. The AI didnt understand gypsy wagons, either in protecting from them or using them.

    3. They were a performance hog. In order to have wagons in the game I needed to check every unit in every city every turn to see if it was a gypsy wagon. If it was then I ran the gypsy wagon code. If you assume a map with 40 cities and 4 unis per city thats 160 python checks each turn so that we can have one unit that may or may not even be in the game. In 0.33 I went through all the python checks looking for places to improve performance and gypsy wagons were a big sore thumb.

    4. Im not convinced they were ever worth the production it cost to make them (would an efficient human player ever spend hammers making wagons?). Note: this isnt a huge concern, especially in the balseraph, I dont mind giving fun options that some players can enjoy and other can skip if they want.
     
  19. countjackula

    countjackula Chieftain

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    I haven't played a vanilla game of Civ4 or BtS since I tried FfH2. Vanilla just feels hollow now. I think that what you've all been able to do with mods speaks volumes about the strength of the core game, but after playing mods it's really hard to go back.

    I'm eager to play this next version. Just like a kid waiting for Christmas all I can say now is, "Please hurry August 15th and come soon."

    Cheers! :D
     
  20. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Ah yes, I see what you mean. Like using metamagic to switch manas once you've built a tower.
     

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