FfH2 0.34 Balance Thread

I posted it in another thread but it belongs in this one.

I really think that the AI bonus rebalancing on the high difficulties - less freebies at the start in exchange for free experience for all their units throughout the game - turned out badly.

Early on it doesn't change much. The AI gets stronger units but less of them, meaning early warfare goes much like it would without the changes. (The new barbs make early rushes by either humans or AI pretty much nonexistent, unless the barbarian trait is thrown in the mix. No one else can spare the units to wage a real war.)

As borders start coming together and religions start getting founded the differences become notable. With the AI armies all getting what amounts to a +40% boost in strength (60 for charismatic on deity) and their production catching up to old levels as they get all the basic worker techs, winning a conventional war is just about impossible. You need anti-stack measures which don't result in sacrificing the unit like fireballs, ritualists, Chalid, Rathas, etc. And it's much easier to win a tech race to these things, having them way before the AI can have them themselves, because they lost so much of their early tech advantage, and even if they aggressively expand it takes a while for their conquered land to turn productive.

Before, it was debatable what the best approach to warfare was. There were lots of different ways to approach the issue, with a religion based strategy fitting in as powerful but risky because there was a chance that the AI would beat you to founding the religions that grant those powerful anti-army spells. Now, getting these things is both guaranteed and necessary (unless you're the dwarves or illians, who can do it with UUs.)

In short, switch the bonuses back. Lost freebies make the AI crap at winning tech races, while extra XP seriously limits your strategic options during war.

Even if you don't take away the XP immediately it really should be done when the AI is taught how to fight more effectively, and they stop needing the crutch.
 
So I don't know if this is bug, balance, or WAD, but you can't ask your teammates to change religions. I was playing a rather odd game the other day: OO following Alexis summons Basium, who also turns OO. After a little exploring, I found that Ethene the white is now Ethene the terrible with Sabathel and Jonas also worshipping the veil. In the mean time, Basium researched the Order like expected. He stayed OO, so I waited until the Order spread to one of my cities and then I adopted it, expecting Basie to do the same. No dice. I tried diplomacy but it wasn't an option, as far as I could tell. I even turned veil for a few turns to summon Hyborem, hoping this would tip Basium's hand. I really wanted an epic game of good vs. evil, but Mr. Neutral Angel Guy just wanted to sit in his capital and dream of his little fish gods.

Short version - you can't ask teammates to change religion.
 
hbar
Could be wrong here but I think Basim adopts the religon of the civ, that built the wonder and summoned him so you would have to change the religon of the original civ teamed with him and he would follow suit.
The other possibility since he starts with one of the summoning civs cities is that city does not have the order spread to it that you want to ask him to change to.
I always have the option to ask anthor civ to change religons in my games if they have at least one city with the religon (and its not redded out as an option).

sorry Hbar, didn't pay attention to the fact that you were the summoner and his teammate.....ignore my silly anwser above.
 
Yeah, I had OO when I summoned him, and that's what he adopted initially. He was the one to research Orders from Heaven though. I didn't check to see if it was in his city, but it spread to one of mine on the same continent, so I can't imagine how else that could have happened. Also, in the diplomacy screen, there wasn't even a 'convert to' category with any religions listed.

Oops, didn't seem your addendum above. Either way, this was probably a silly question in the first place, so silly answers are appreciated.
 
I spawned Basium once and he changed to the Order after reseasrching it, although I had Kilmorph or something.
You can see the AI sometimes change to a religion that is far more spread in order to have more diplomatic allies.
Maybe OO was spread that much that it outweighed the high priority of Basium to change to his usually prefered religion.
 
Actually, the Ashen Veil was the most prominent religion, but he shied away from that for whatever reason. Only one other civ had OO, the Amurites, and they only had one city (they drew the raging barbs short straw). It doesn't bug me that he adopted OO (I was OO when I summoned him), it bugs me that he didn't follow me to the Order, and I couldn't ask him to switch.
 
Actually, the Ashen Veil was the most prominent religion, but he shied away from that for whatever reason. Only one other civ had OO, the Amurites, and they only had one city (they drew the raging barbs short straw). It doesn't bug me that he adopted OO (I was OO when I summoned him), it bugs me that he didn't follow me to the Order, and I couldn't ask him to switch.

Try converting his cities to the order. The AI primarily bases chance of conversion on how many it's people follow the faith, followed by diplo bonuses.
 
Quick balance question:

Why do Charadon (Agg/Bar) and Mahala (Rai/Ing) have one less trait than everyone else? All other barb/Ing trait leaders have 2 other traits, such as Sheelba (Agg/Org/Bar) and Arturus Thorne (Ind/Org/Ing).

Arguing that the leaders are balanced 'by civ' doesn't make much sense here, as the Doviello have suffered many versions as the underdogs and could in no way be considered a powerhouse civ, especially compared to the CoE and the Khazad as per my example above.

Just curious as to the rationale, or if it's an oversight.
 
I would like to see more of a downside to owning more than one Holy City. Right now, it is really easy to found a few different religions (through both techs and dungeons) and get lots of benefits from it (mana, money, ect). I think the best way to do this is through events and diplomatic modifiers.

For example, if I had FoL and AV Holy Cities and followed Veil, but Arendel followed FoL, she would want that city and thus get a diplo modifier like "-4, you do not appreciate our Holy City!"

As for events, the Minister Koun event could have a much greater chance of occuring if you had a Holy City of a religion you did not follow. Others could be created, but this seems like the easiest to impliment without adding anything big.

I think these are minor changes that, while still letting people found multiple religions, can cause enough incentive not to.
 
I liberated Brigit from the Ring of Carcer with a sedulous Hunter-Hero unit. What followed was ANTICLIMACTIC!!! She's just an ordinary unit of a one digit strength (don't remember) without any perks at all!!!!????? :confused: No Hero promo, not even Angel race? Is tat supposed to be like that? :confused: Hey I spent two centuries hunting goblins all around the world to get my Hunter the level 15. :cry: Not fair!!!

IMHO, (and it is humble, indeed!) she should have at least channeling 2 and fire 2. She is the Archangel of Fire, after all!
 
I liberated Brigit from the Ring of Carcer with a sedulous Hunter-Hero unit. What followed was ANTICLIMACTIC!!! She's just an ordinary unit of a one digit strength (don't remember) without any perks at all!!!!????? :confused: No Hero promo, not even Angel race? Is tat supposed to be like that? :confused: Hey I spent two centuries hunting goblins all around the world to get my Hunter the level 15. :cry: Not fair!!!

IMHO, (and it is humble, indeed!) she should have at least channeling 2 and fire 2. She is the Archangel of Fire, after all!

odd, she should have hero, 11 strength (8 + 3 sun)... seems like a bug. Maybe the hunter had some sort of capturing capacity, capturing the placeholder brigit instead of summoning the real one?
 
I liberated Brigit from the Ring of Carcer with a sedulous Hunter-Hero unit. What followed was ANTICLIMACTIC!!! She's just an ordinary unit of a one digit strength (don't remember) without any perks at all!!!!????? No Hero promo, not even Angel race? Is tat supposed to be like that? Hey I spent two centuries hunting goblins all around the world to get my Hunter the level 15. Not fair!!!

No, you just had a bug :) When you normally get Brigid she has 6str, +3 fire str, fire affinity, angel and hero...
 
I liberated Brigit just once and the very same thing happened to me.
I was very disappointed and didn't understand all the excitement about Brigit at all :D
 
She is immortal.
 
She is a bit lackluster, but not as lackluster as Erzherzog described as she should have Angel and Hero, and Fire affinity. In my version, he has Angel, Hero, March, Blitz, Flying, Command I, Valor, and Crown of Brilliance (which she gains back after every battle), slightly higher strength, twice the affinity, and the Pillar of Fire spell, and I obviously didn't take away the unit's intrinsic immortality. Freeing her also starts a golden age, but only Good civs can release her. (Neutral and evil can release an equally strong Odio from his prison instead.)
 
So, I really like the Airships for the Kuriotates, I do... but is there anyway they could 'upgrade' into work boats? Feels rather ******ed that your settlements can't fish.
 
She is a bit lackluster, but not as lackluster as Erzherzog described as she should have Angel and Hero, and Fire affinity. In my version, he has Angel, Hero, March, Blitz, Flying, Command I, Valor, and Crown of Brilliance (which she gains back after every battle), slightly higher strength, twice the affinity, and the Pillar of Fire spell, and I obviously didn't take away the unit's intrinsic immortality. Freeing her also starts a golden age, but only Good civs can release her. (Neutral and evil can release an equally strong Odio from his prison instead.)

You know what, now that I think back, this might have happened (bug?) because I made a scenario on a Earth2 generated map, personally placing the Ring of Carcer and other Unique Features. But still, she had no Angel, no Hero and nothing else for that matter, and definitely started no Golden Age for my Good Empyrean Amurites. Maybe on an original map it's different... Anyways, it didn't stop me from getting her all the promos she 'should' have had through the Most Sacred of Sacraments : The World Builder. :backstab:
 
Placing the feature like that should not have removed the promotions the unit starts with in its xml defines. Brigit always has Angel and Hero. I you were talking about Brigit_held (the 0 str, immobile unit that spawns there and must be captured to get the real Brigit) she would still have Angel, although not Hero. I don't see what could have changed this, apart from editing CIV4UnitInfos.xml.

(The golden age was just something I added, so it would be very odd indeed if that had happened.)
 
So, I really like the Airships for the Kuriotates, I do... but is there anyway they could 'upgrade' into work boats? Feels rather ******ed that your settlements can't fish.

Airships could just be given the ability to improve sea resources, that would work well enough. Units that only can improve sea resources are usually able to do so safely without needing the ability to build roads, although I haven't tried it with a combat unit.

On another note, Javelin Throwers are terrible. I'd really prefer that they get a boost like being able to use metal promotions or something, especially since the Archery line is already so weak.
 
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