FfH2 0.34 Balance Thread

[MiKa523]

I think you are supposed to think ahead when building roads regarding your own mobility but also threat from raider neighbours.
I'd rather like to see some trait/wonder/civ that disables the raider trait in once territory, e.g. a religious shrine (empyrian?).

 

[brucedecatz]

There are several reasons that I prefer sabotage own road compared to a wonder/trait/spell that disable the trait:

1. No other trait is disabled this way in game. (Infernal/Mercurian loses their traits upon the death of their hero is the only thing close)

2. In the history of warfare, sabotaging one's own transport lines in defense have been used very often. Numerous examples exist in modern times. Russia, China did so in their WWII efforts.

3. Right now we can pillage most of our own improvements. Adding roads to the list should not be hard to implement.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

Own road sabotage

Seconded...

 

[brucedecatz]

I have played several games, and the Illians AI almost always gets killed after Samhaim. It is understandable; if they build Samhaim and not warriors in the early game, they cannot find against frostling wolf riders. Hence, that needs some AI change. Make Samhaim less of a priority for them, or somehow make the frostlings less likely to go for the Illians (but they are usually the lowest on power at this point).

 

[MiKa523]

Agreed.
It seems that the Illians are building Samhain right from start.
If frostlings won't go for them it would even help them to kill one civ early, which is (was?) a prereq. for another ritual.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

not a balance question, but I don't know where else to put it

animals and maybe beast units should NOT be able to use items imho... a tiger with Orthus' axe definitely makes no sense at all

 

[Sarisin]

not a balance question, but I don't know where else to put it

animals and maybe beast units should NOT be able to use items imho... a tiger with Orthus' axe definitely makes no sense at all

How about a Werewolf? I often give a weapon to the Baron or a Great Werewolf if I have a weapon.

Also, what about a Dragon Hero?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you're right, SOME beasts should be able to use items, werewolves and hill giants being a prime example.

I really like the way that Orbi modmod handles beast units btw, like griffons and giant spiders being beasts instead of animals ( makes sense to me ) . and I'm waiting for the Jotnar so that the hill giants get a suitable "giant" racial promotion

 

[Mailbox]

Neutral civilizations should get a free GP + research event for balance reasons. Maybe it could be given to the Dagda event.

 

[Imuratep]

I think neutral is strong enough. They have a Channeling III mage you don't have to upgrade, get less diplomacy mali than good and evil (They only get -2 for evil opponents, not for good opponents) and can build altar of luonnatar (what evil can't do). There should actually be some benefit of being good or evil and this is one (and should stay as it is).

 

[Sarisin]

I'm getting convinced (based on my games so far) more and more that the raging barb feature is broken in .34.

Maybe it does have something to do with your other game variables (map type, size, etc.), but I'm seeing the same thing in each of my games:

I play on a huge land map with 10-11 other civs, Epic speed. In my current game played as Hippus/Rhoanna, for example:

I am going pretty good - number one in pts with two cities. Then, on Turn 200 the barbs start flooding into my territory. This is to be expected and is no different that any previous versions of FFH.

However, what is different is that from Turn 200 to 270 I had 10-20 attacking barb units in my territory while the other 9 civs (Jonas Endain was in the game and at peace with the barbs) had virtually none. I was unable to expand and lost most of my improvements as well. Adding to this was that damn Illian World Spell that cut my production/research for 30 of these turns. There is little worse than getting selected as the barbs' target and then not being able to build any defenders for 30 turns.

I opened the World Builder a few turns after the barbs backed off and here is where I have a problem with how the barb targeting mechanism works now...

Most civs had 5 or more cities. Some had 10 or more. I had dropped in pts from well in first down closer to the pack - this difference would grow as the AI had its civs up and running. I lost out on Wonders and Great People as I was in defending mode for 70 turns.

Also, interestingly, when I opened the WB I saw few barbs. There certainly were no civs getting pounded like I did for 70 turns.

Again, I don't mind the pounding - that is to be expected and I prepare for it. However, what I think is broken in .34 is some sort of time keeper that re-targets the barbs on to other civs after a reasonable amount of time. 70 turns early on in an Epic speed game IMO is a game breaker and truly a balance issue.

I would suggest if you want to keep this new barb AI targeting, fine. But, please have a look at how long this targeting is in effect before other civs get their turn.

I realize my game variables might have something to do with what I am getting on this and would be anxious to hear from others who play the game with similar variables and what they are seeing with the targeting.

Thanks.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It annoys me that units with Blitz, Illusion, and Marksman cannot attack the same stack multiple times; the damage limit given from Illusion makes it unable to attack units reduced to 10% strength, and these units will almost always be the weakest unit in the stack so they would be the next one targeted for attack, making the attack impossible even though there are less injured units it could otherwise attack.

Could Markman be made to ignore units that are to damaged for the unit to be able to attack?



Ok, so this may only pretty much only matter for Alazkan's Mirror and he is probably strong enough, but it is still annoying.

 

[Imuratep]

Increase the total number of barbarians, but distribute them more equitably to all players. The new barbs are something good, because they prevent you from having cities with one or two soldiers and make the early game more interesting, but especially in Multiplayer it's really annoying to be the only one being attacked (though they never really are a problem, if you do it right, but nevertheless you can't ignore).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'll second Imuratep, I like 0.34 barbs but I wish they would target people more evenly

 

[Sarisin]

After I wrote the post above, I went back to my game. After no more than 10 turns (I was still re-building improvements), the barbs came back.

Again, I have been the only one with any barb attacks and it has been, this time, more than 100 turns. The map has pretty much filled up - AI civs have settled up to north, east and south borders. Only my western border is free (for me to expand), but the barbs are pouring in that small space. No letup is in sight. At least now I can build more units. Most of my units have 100 XP and are frozen at that despite killing barbs almost every turn.

Next game: no raging barbs.

 

[Imuratep]

That's why I'm pleeding to change this world spell. His effect is strong and I like to have the worldspells a real impact on the game, but the problem is that it's incredibly boring to press enter for twenty turns. Yesterday I played a game with raging barbs and the barbarians attacked me and just me (about 6-7 barbs per turn). You can actually prepare for the attacks (I had 7 warriors at turn 30-40) and train your troops. With the 0.34 barbs you just have to think of the worst case from the beginning. Before you build anything like buildings or workers, think of your defense. The barbs also can be quite a benefit. I easily killed my neighbours because my troops were trained so well. The worldspell would not have been a problem if Auric had been in my game anyway. For me the worldspell is more annoying if you are NOT attacked by barbarians because then you really do nothing at all (What is especially ugly in multiplayer, if another player is the target and you have to wait quite some time till the turn is finished)

 

[Sarisin]

That's why I'm pleeding to change this world spell. His effect is strong and I like to have the worldspells a real impact on the game, but the problem is that it's incredibly boring to press enter for twenty turns. Yesterday I played a game with raging barbs and the barbarians attacked me and just me (about 6-7 barbs per turn). You can actually prepare for the attacks (I had 7 warriors at turn 30-40) and train your troops. With the 0.34 barbs you just have to think of the worst case from the beginning. Before you build anything like buildings or workers, think of your defense. The barbs also can be quite a benefit. I easily killed my neighbours because my troops were trained so well. The worldspell would not have been a problem if Auric had been in my game anyway. For me the worldspell is more annoying if you are NOT attacked by barbarians because then you really do nothing at all (What is especially ugly in multiplayer, if another player is the target and you have to wait quite some time till the turn is finished)

In Epic Speed the Illian World Spell is 30 turns. I can't say I didn't have anything to do, though, as I spent the entire time defending against the constant flow of raging barbs. I had a few defenders killed and couldn't replace them as my production was frozen. Again, the balance issue here is that although all civs are affected by Stasis in that they cannot Research/Produce, only I was getting killed constantly by the new barb AI targeting mechanism. That's where, IMO, to be fair, you need to switch targets now and then rather than hammering one civ until they are wiped out.

I can only imagine how this would affect multi-player as I play on Single player games. The only solution I can see the way the game is now is to forget about the raging barb option as the targeting would not affect you as much with a smaller amount of barbs.

The thing about all this that makes me laugh is when I finally am able to free up some of my guys, I find all the AI civs are sitting back with only one or two weak defenders because they have no fear of barb attacks. You do have an advantage with a stronger veteran army of units, but the AI with its 'No Fear Expansion Policy" has passed you in techs, territory, GPs, Wonders, etc. It is quite frustrating playing the raging barb game now IMO.

 

[Imuratep]

We ALWAYS play raging barbs in our multiplayer games so we anyway prepare very good for a barbarian rush if Auric Ulvin is in the game or not. And if you do it right you don't lose a single improvement to the barbs and don't fall back in tech. I had this situation with the sheaim (about 6 Barbs in your territory every turn) and I considered it to be an advantage as my neighbors where rolled by my pyrozombies when the wave of aggression started to ebb away. Use your units offensively, don't leave them in your cities, put them on forests, start to train your units very early. The best solution is to discover education for apprenticeship, then to build some units with Woodsman I (especially very good if your playing an Elf civilization). These are very good to defend against the barbs as you can attack them on nearly all terrains and especially outside your terrain.

Ok for wonders I can't say because in FfH i consider nearly all wonders as rather pointless (except perhaps Great Library which really makes a difference) and nearly never build any. But I can understand your thoughts, because if you prefer a builderstyle it's quite ennervating. (I begin nearly all my games with early rushes so it does not matter to me so much)

 

[Imuratep]

I also think summoned units generally should not count for war weariness because of logical issues. I had a game with the Sheaim where i lead war with masses of skeletons and spectres but then I saw that I had war weariness and i wondered why should I have war weariness, I never lost a single unit, so it had to be my summoned units, which caused war weariness.

 

[kenken244]

You get war weariness from killing enemy units too.