FfH2 0.34 Balance Thread

[xienwolf]

So, I really like the Airships for the Kuriotates, I do... but is there anyway they could 'upgrade' into work boats? Feels rather ******** that your settlements can't fish.

Another route to take is to allow Airships a 10 turn delay spell to summon a workboat. Then you still have some cost involved (lack of airship use for 10 turns, vulnerability to attack), but no the full cost of an airsihp.

 

[MiKa523]

Sounds great, xienwolf!

 

[Kimbal]

Is it me or the defender trait seems like seriously underpowered compared to the rest?

I think that the homeland promotion should give 20% strenght, or maybe instead of giving the homeland promotion it should give some other thing, like 10% extra healing for your units

 

[Mailbox]

Another route to take is to allow Airships a 10 turn delay spell to summon a workboat. Then you still have some cost involved (lack of airship use for 10 turns, vulnerability to attack), but no the full cost of an airsihp.

Why not make a spell that can only be cast "In City" and "Next to Water" that has a requirement of the Fishing tech and takes 10 turns + 25 gold. That way the Kuriotates could get the Workboats when they need them early on.

 

[kuneru]

Hello.
I think it's better to make victory condition "Alter of the Luonnotar" to victory for Researchers, like Space Race Victory of Original Civ4.

in particular, my ideas are:

1) "Omniscience" technology requires "Divine Essence" technology.
Then it requires "Divine Essence, and Commune with Natures, and (Strength the Will or Pass through the Ether)".
If it's too complexed, then "Divine Essence, and (Strength the Will or Pass through the Ether)" is also good.

2) To reduce the cost of "Alter of the Luonnotar (Final)" to 2500 or 2000. (now it's 4000).
Or, here is another idea, the cost of Alter(Final) is 4000, but Double Production from Mithril.

I think that "Divine Essence" is very useful (or required) to make the altar for the one true god.
"Divine Essence" is at quite different position from "Omniscience" in the tech tree, so you have to research very hard to acquire Omniscience (literally).
Instead, to build the Alter(Final) becomes a little easier.
Now your civ needs more instead of .

Which victory condition is suitable for each civilization ?
- Conquest and Domination Victory - for Aggressive Civilization
- Religilus and Cultural Victory - for Peaceful and cultural Civilization
- Tower of Mastery Victory - Balanced (Warfare and Research)

then, It may fits.
- Alter of Luonnotar Victory - for Scientific Civilization

 

[pchem]

By far my biggest balance concern is the lack of effectiveness in the AI use of magic. Spellcasters, spells, hero special abilities, world spells, take your pick. The AI is not a threat with it, and it's a huge part of the game.

A game I enjoy, for free, of course. Thanks! It's fun.

 

[kuneru]

note: Gekko said the following technique is a bug and already fixed

in particular, my ideas are:

1) "Omniscience" technology requires "Divine Essence" technology.
Then it requires "Divine Essence, and Commune with Natures, and (Strength the Will or Pass through the Ether)".
If it's too complexed, then "Divine Essence, and (Strength the Will or Pass through the Ether)" is also good.

(omit)

I think that "Divine Essence" is very useful (or required) to make the altar for the one true god.
"Divine Essence" is at quite different position from "Omniscience" in the tech tree, so you have to research very hard to acquire Omniscience (literally).

I learned that "Divine Essence" technology is already very useful for Alter of Luonnotar Victory.
So I withdraw my idea.

Without this technology, you need to sacrifice 6 great prophets to build 6 grades of Alter of Luonnotar.
But you need only 3 great prophets to achive this victory with Divine Essence tech.

in particular:
1) produce 3 great prophets, and keep them.
2) get Divine Essence and Omniscience technology.
3) build "Blood of the Phoenix" project. Then, 3 great prophets gets "Immortal" effect.
4) Sacrifice 3 great prophets to make 3 grades of Alter of Luonnotar.
5) Then 3 great prophets once die, and rebirth!
6) Sacrifice 3 great prophets once more, to make another 3 grades of Alter of Luonnotar.
7) Now you're ready to make Alter of Luonnotar (Final) !

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

what patch are you using? I thought the exploit about immortal GPs had been fixed already...

edit: it should have been fixed by patch F

 

[civ_king]

I think that your thinking of Black Mirror GP

 

[kuneru]

what patch are you using? I thought the exploit about immortal GPs had been fixed already...

edit: it should have been fixed by patch F

Oh, is it a bug?
I thought it's a good game design...
I'm using FfH2 034 Patch g Japanese version. It's a little modified to be suitable for BtS 3.13 Japanese edition, so it may be different from English or other language version.

I hope to make "Divine Essence" tech useful for Alter of Luonnotar victory again.
For example, Omniscience tech requires Divine Essence tech...

 

[Zechnophobe]

That would just make the Altar victory that much harder to get! You'd need to get the full metal line of techs too.

 

[kuneru]

That would just make the Altar victory that much harder to get! You'd need to get the full metal line of techs too.

OK, and I suggest to reduce the cost of Alter(Final).
It means it's the victory of a researcher.
For details and reason, please see my post on Dec 01, 2008, 01:24 PM in this thread.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

It wouldn't be a research victory because it would still require the prophets.

The final Altar's easy right now, just save up a wad of cash before starting it then buy it. The real challenge right now is getting the required GPs and your idea keeps that.

 

[Zechnophobe]

No, the real challenge is researching the entire arcane, recon, and priesthood line. Getting prophets is easy, so long as you stay focused.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Hi all! I have been playing this mod for some time, although these are my first posts, and I think it is an amazing game.

I haven't read the rest of the ballancing thread, so please forgive me if I say something already mentioned.

I would like to make a suggestion conserning the Tower of Mastery victory condition.
After winning a couple of games in a standard map with this victory condition, without playing an arcane focussed civilization, it came to me that the basic strategy is simple and it makes winning in the final stages relatively easy. All you need is four mana nodes, a Mage capable of casting dispel magic and a few thousands gold. After building the appropriate mana nodes for each lesser tower, and creating the tower, you dispel the nodes, then build the other mana nodes etc, and you buy the tower of mastery, so that the others do not manage to get to you before completing it.

So, as a measure of balancing this I suggest the following:
1) Make all 5 towers non-hurried wonders. This way the rest of the world get more time to respond and prevent it from happening. Even if not all 5, at least the Tower of Mastery should be a non-puschaceable wonder. Building it means winning the game, so I really think the rest of the world deserves a chance to prevent you, or build it before you do.

2) Make the towers cost more for non arcane civs. I think it should be easier for the Amurites to build the arcane towers than, for example, the Hippus. Or, even better, so that the adaptive leaders could be covered, make the arcane towers easier to build for civs with the Arcane trait. This could mean increasing the cost so that it is still balanced.

In Addition, I think the Altar of the Luonnatar(Final) should also be a non-purchaceable wonder.

I think that making some wonders that are vital to certain civilizations easier to build for these civilizations may also help in balancing the game. An example is the Ride of Nine Kings for the Hippus.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I disagree. In most cases the amount of resources you spend on completing the Tower of Master, and even more so the Altar of the Luonatar, are roughly comparable with those needed to achieve other victory conditions. It just 'feels' easier because the AI doesn't disrupt you from doing it. You still have to spend a lot on research and production (Even if you buy it, that money comes from somewhere) and have at least 2 or 3 mana nodes.

Generally, I think you could have achieved a domination or conquest victory many times over with the amount of gold people spend to buy the ToM or Final Altar (10,000 gold is a *lot* of mercenaries).

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I've seen Bowyers brought up in a few other threads, but playing as the Amurites for the 1st time with an eye on Bowyers, I just realised how expensive it is. I really feel it's gotta be dropped a bit. I never research it with other Civs because it takes so long, but actually looking at it properly, I've just realised how much it costs compared to what else it out there:

Bowyers
Cost: 3168 Beakers
Gives: Longbowmen, Nightwatch and Firebow (Amurites) + Bowyers
Pre-Reqs: Archery, Bronze Working.
Leads to: Machinery, Precision.

Bowyers is a pretty crap building in my opinion. +2 exp points for Archery units and +10% Defence and it's required to train Crossbowmen and Marksmen (very late game national limit units).

The units it unlocks are nice. Longbowmen are strength 5 with 1 first strike and defence bonuses on Hills and Cities (as well as access to the City Garrison Line). They cost 120 Hammers to build and come from techs of around that area, making them very comparable to Champions (Iron Working), Chariots (Trade+Construction) and Fanaticism units (Stygian Guard, Paramander, Crusader).

So, with that in mind, the other techs:

Iron Working
Cost: 2112 beakers
Gives: Champions, Champion UUs, Shipyard and Lumbermill
Pre-Reqs: Smelting
Leads to: Mithril Working

The pre-req is a lot more expensive, but the pre-req is also quite a useful one and adding the pre-req and Iron Working together is 3696 beakers, about 500 more than Bowyers in total, but gaining Forges and revealing Iron (and making Workshops, which I think are useless personally). Regardless, I think Champions come as a by-product of a superior tech-line, despite Shipyards being quite meh (+4 XP for Naval Units is very very minimal).

Fanaticism
Cost: 2112 beakers
Gives: Crusader, Stygian Guard, Paramander, Altar of Luonnotar V, Mercurian Gate
Pre-Reqs: Code of Laws, Priesthood
Leads to: Malevolent Designs, Rage, Righteousness

Pre-reqs are a little pricier but also very useful. On the other hand, Crusaders, Stygian Guard and Paramanders are Religion specific, so I don't know if it's fair to compare them to Longbowmen which aren't. Regardless, this line is also better than Bowyers

Trade + Construction
Cost: 400 + 400 = 800
Gives: ... a lot
Pre-Reqs: Masonry, Writing, Horseback Riding

Trade is a must-have Tech and even Constrction falls quite close to being a must have. Of course, Chariots are only really attacking units, and don't offer the balance of defending and attacking like Champions do.


....

Anyway, the point is, I see a lot of people on these forums say they never bother with Bowyers. It's easy to see why. It only unlocks two units (one religion specific) and unlike the other Techs that unlock a comparable unit it offers little else worthwhile.

So yeah... all I'm saying is... bring down the cost some. This is the first time I've paid proper attention to it and now I know why I never paid attention to it in the first place. It's cost doesn't equal its value. So, I propose that we bring the cost of the Bowyers tech down to 1.5k-2k beakers or buff it up so it's a more attractive line, with the former option being more viable.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I do not know if this is the correct thread for AI balancing issues... Anyway, I use magic a lot and I really like elementals. What is fairly amusing, and somewhat dissapointing is that the AI sees the elementals as 1st priority targets, attacking with quite a few units on strong elementals that are going to be dead next turn anyway, resulting in weakening their defenses with no apparent reason.
A suggestion is to make the AI consider the fact that the enemy will die next turn anyway and target something else, unless of course there is good chance in killing the elemental and get the exp with just one attack.

 

[Nimbus]

So yeah... all I'm saying is... bring down the cost some. This is the first time I've paid proper attention to it and now I know why I never paid attention to it in the first place. It's cost doesn't equal its value. So, I propose that we bring the cost of the Bowyers tech down to 1.5k-2k beakers or buff it up so it's a more attractive line, with the former option being more viable.

yes, bowyers can be a late decision to go after in most cases, especially with the cost. and going forward it is worse as the building is gone and the extra city defense and +2 xp to the archer line is gone as well.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've been meaning to mention this for a long time now, and someone else might have mentioned it already. But, size 2 cities are immune to the Calabim world spell, which makes size 3 cities get a harder hit than size 2 cities. Shouldn't size 2 cities lose at least 1 population?