Love
Deity
Oh i meant does the snow melt afterwards if you capture an illian city or does you have to cast a spell like scorch?
FfH2 0.34 Change log
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Nor'easter
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 1,928
@Kael:
That's a helpful explanation about how you see designing the different civs and their relationship to the terrain. Put me in mind of a quote from Lawrence of Arabia:
Prince Feisal: No Arab loves the desert. We love water and green trees. There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing.
That's a helpful explanation about how you see designing the different civs and their relationship to the terrain. Put me in mind of a quote from Lawrence of Arabia:
Prince Feisal: No Arab loves the desert. We love water and green trees. There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing.
Goodgimp
Warlord
Re: design of civs/terrain, that's quite interesting Kael. I hadn't looked at it in that way before, but I think you're right on that account. Many races having preferred terrain would cause a lot less contention - Malakim would run to the deserts, Doviello to the tundra, etc.
cyther
Lord of the Dance
Is it obtainable or just a teaser ?(Like rosier oathtaker and the scenario screen)
hiphopin
Warlord
Anyone think that Auric Ascended isn't really THAT powerful for the price you pay? Think about it, the meshaber of dis probably hits much more than auric through promotions, auric is unable to gain promotions. 60 strength and a blizzard spell doesnt seem to cut it, especially since you are locked in a permenant war with everyone when you gain him.
Also seriously consider giving earth elementals the bombard ability, that seems SO fitting for them. And if you haven't already done so in the change log, doviello need much more synergy with tundra terrain, and someone proposed some ideas for the doviello in a thread, keeping their citys small for more of a tribal feel, I really liked the whole idea and I hope you do more with the doviello than whats already in the change log.
Also seriously consider giving earth elementals the bombard ability, that seems SO fitting for them. And if you haven't already done so in the change log, doviello need much more synergy with tundra terrain, and someone proposed some ideas for the doviello in a thread, keeping their citys small for more of a tribal feel, I really liked the whole idea and I hope you do more with the doviello than whats already in the change log.
Forget flavor for a second and think about design. The ability to reduce city defenses is a significant ability. Right now its owned by siege equipment (which the Khazad have a strength in), available with fire magic (fireballs and to a lesser extent with gunpowder and shadow magic (units there can ignore city defense when attacking). And of course naval units on coastal cities.
We gave the ability hill giants to make them an alternaitve to siege equipment, since they are wonder produced im fine with that. But outside of that I hate to keep handing out the ability, otherwise everything starts to feel the same. People have requested that a lot of units get bombard, and from a flavor perspective they all make sense, but we look at it from a different perspective.
We try not to look at the units and ask ourselves what abilities they should have. We look at the sphere/civ and try to give abilities that match the strengths of that area. In earths case its supposed to be a defensive sphere. Thats tough to make exciting. I have no problem with a perk for Earth Elementals, I just dont think that bombarding city defense works from a function perspective.
Also they are supposed to work well with the khazad, and giving another bombard ability to the best bombarders in the game doesnt help them. It would be better for them to get a different elemental, which is not a situation we want to create.
We are doing a lot of talking about design and why we make the inscrutable decisions that we do. Its really not just a magic eightball deciding everything, and although I certainly make tons of mistakes every version (both in bugs and in design as we see from the numerous patches) we typically consider 3 things when thinking about a change. They are listed below in priority:
Fun: would that change be fun, would be get excited about it ("drool factor") and want to try it out?
Function: is their a design need for this change? Is there some problem we are trying to solve? Does this change conform with the rest of the mods design?
Flavor: Is the change intuitive, does it make the unit/civ/sphere more interesting without being overly complex.
If its not fun it doesnt go any farther. We have some fun things int he mod that have very little flavor or function but they will probably never leave because fun trumps everything. Function is the real decider for the wide range of fun things we could do. If it fills a functional need it probably going to happen. But it has to be considered from the perspective of the object being changed, the effect on performance, ease of implementation, effect on the objects the changed object is balanced against, effect on the game in total, behavior it rewards, effect on the civ, etc. Lastly if it has passed all the other tests flavor isnt to hard to find. Flavor is really taking the mechanic and mapping it to the imagined resource in the players mind in a logical way.
The Doviello are a bit tougher. Xienwolf had some really cool ideas that I played around with. But I dont know of a way to change them so significantly this late in the process. Obviously reducing their city size by limiting their improvements, blocking health and happiness buildings, etc would be a huge disadvantage for them. Which would require a significant perk to compensate. We are trying to wrap up and finish the mod, starting some civs over in design is a trap door toward a never ending project.
And sadly you are going to see that answer more and more often as we get closer to the end.
Stupid question, but why is the never-ending project a bad thing? It seems to have worked fine so far.
Of course, I understand perfectly well if you folks want to do something else in your lives than just refine FfH.
Doviello could use a perk or two without shocking entire balance, though. Cities over size 8 having chance of spawning troops when growing a pop point instead of growing, for example.
Better yet, chance of all unhappy citizens turned into axemen. Think about that. No unrest anymore. WW kicks in and you weaken economically but get even more troops. Flavorwise, as war gets dire more young warriors want to join war.
Better yet, chance of all unhappy citizens turned into axemen. Think about that. No unrest anymore. WW kicks in and you weaken economically but get even more troops. Flavorwise, as war gets dire more young warriors want to join war.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Hey Kael, for Earth elementals, if you just gave them Guerilla 2, and make them an Archmage analog of Treants, would be a pretty decent start.
Another good option would be to give them guardsmen. Fire elementals for city assault, Air Elementals for broken field combat, Water elementals for naval combat, earth for defense. Makes a good bit of sense.
Another good option would be to give them guardsmen. Fire elementals for city assault, Air Elementals for broken field combat, Water elementals for naval combat, earth for defense. Makes a good bit of sense.
Stupid question, but why is the never-ending project a bad thing? It seems to have worked fine so far.
Of course, I understand perfectly well if you folks want to do something else in your lives than just refine FfH.
Thats a fair question. FfH development will end. The only question is will it end with the completion of the project, or will it be dropped when something else happens. We obviously wont develop forever. Given those two options I want to go for the first. I want a finished product that everyone who worked on it can be proud of. I dont want to have the mod eternally unfinished.
Keep in mind that the only way we get through the stages is by calling an end to it and going onto the next step. If we just endlessly tinkered we would still be back in "Light" perfecting the spell system. We need to finish a section so we can go on to the next thing.
And as much as we enjoy this, and I think we have done a good job of making sure FfH is fun and playable through all stages, there are a significant amount of players who are waiting for a final version of FfH. And some mod modders who would like us to give them a professional quality product that they can build on.
Personally I dont plan on working on FfH forever but I wont just stop updating when some other project comes along. That isnt fair to all the people who have put time and effort into the mod. They deserve a version that is as complete as possible (understanding that we could always do more).
Thats my thoughts at least. Though I must admit that it is hard to stop tinkering. There have been quite a few times I said we were done with something only to go back and add new stuff in. For the past few versions Ive been telling myself that it will be the last version to include major features, yet some always sneak into the next one (this one being marnok's amazing explorable lairs).
I don't think it'd be never-ending. I think what we're all looking for is a "complete" game... for me that currently means a few things need to be done:
1) Add quests. The existence of quests in Age of Ice was very cool, and I was disappointed to not see them in FFH2 when I downloaded it. I understand they're slated for a later version, and that's cool, I don't mind waiting, but they're something I'm very much looking forward to.
2) Balance civilizations. Most of the civs are good as is, a couple are little off. Doviello are an example of that... they need to be given something to make them interesting and strong enough to be a contender. The recent changes to Kuriotates are perfect examples of this... they were horribly weak before, but now with the addition of Enclaves and Airships there's not a whole lot to complain about. Mercurians need some major fixing, Malakim, Doviello and Bannor each need a small boost of some sort. If you did that, it'd basically be done. I'd like to see changes to the way Khazad handle hills and maybe an alteration to the Grigori adventurers (Magister had some good ideas there), but, honestly, those aren't essential -- Khazad and Grigori are already contenders as is; Malakim, Doviello, Bannor and Mercurians are not.
3) The Pedia badly needs fixing... lots of stuff has no description whatsoever, plenty others have wrong descriptions. This is a serious problem when you're not sure what something does, and there's essentially no way to find out.
Then there's spell/promotion tweaks, etc, but they're already pretty good. Nothing seems to be glaringly "missing" there so it wouldn't matter. If the Pedia were fixed, the "weak" civs boosted and quests added, the game would be in a state that you could package it and call it done. If the Pedia were fixed and quests were added but the Doviello were left as horsehockey as current, there'd be a sense that the team just kind of gave up. Maybe the wolfpacks will fix that, though... I'll have to see how they work.
1) Add quests. The existence of quests in Age of Ice was very cool, and I was disappointed to not see them in FFH2 when I downloaded it. I understand they're slated for a later version, and that's cool, I don't mind waiting, but they're something I'm very much looking forward to.
2) Balance civilizations. Most of the civs are good as is, a couple are little off. Doviello are an example of that... they need to be given something to make them interesting and strong enough to be a contender. The recent changes to Kuriotates are perfect examples of this... they were horribly weak before, but now with the addition of Enclaves and Airships there's not a whole lot to complain about. Mercurians need some major fixing, Malakim, Doviello and Bannor each need a small boost of some sort. If you did that, it'd basically be done. I'd like to see changes to the way Khazad handle hills and maybe an alteration to the Grigori adventurers (Magister had some good ideas there), but, honestly, those aren't essential -- Khazad and Grigori are already contenders as is; Malakim, Doviello, Bannor and Mercurians are not.
3) The Pedia badly needs fixing... lots of stuff has no description whatsoever, plenty others have wrong descriptions. This is a serious problem when you're not sure what something does, and there's essentially no way to find out.
Then there's spell/promotion tweaks, etc, but they're already pretty good. Nothing seems to be glaringly "missing" there so it wouldn't matter. If the Pedia were fixed, the "weak" civs boosted and quests added, the game would be in a state that you could package it and call it done. If the Pedia were fixed and quests were added but the Doviello were left as horsehockey as current, there'd be a sense that the team just kind of gave up. Maybe the wolfpacks will fix that, though... I'll have to see how they work.
Removing the entire Guild mechanics is huge, though I agree the guilds doesn't do much as a whole. Maybe by keeping the Guilds, add a HQ for each Guild, which require a GP and generates 1 gold/turn will make them more attractive(especially for the Rat Catchers)?
I didn't go through all replies so sorry if someone posted similar ideas already.
I didn't go through all replies so sorry if someone posted similar ideas already.
Avahz Darkwood
Emperor
I think I read somewhere that the guilds were removed due the them causing a number of OOS issues.
Fixed quests have been taken over by emergent quests. Meaning things the in game occur that allow the player to make quests on his own, if he wants to. No quest will come up and say "travel to x spot and kill y monster". Instead their is a guarded lair or a dungeon there and you can go or not.
There are treasure chests you can get maps too and seek out or not, there are unique barbaian heroes you can kill and take equipment from, and there are the other empires. "Quests" are what you choose to do in dealing with these. The rewards are in the xp, equipment and treasure gained. Just because we dont tell you exactly what to do (which is boring the 2nd time) doesnt make it not a quest.
Balance on strengths I agree with. But some civs are always goign to be flashier than others. The Doviello and Bannor are good civs power wise, they just dont have flashy mechanics. Thats fine, we need a mix fo flashy civs and more normal civs and I reguarly recommend people try the doviello ro bannor when starting play in FfH.
But the Malakim do need something. I dont know what it is. I dont want to give them super cities, so yield bonuses dont seem right. They are supposed to be our religious priests and nomad but they are pinched between the flavor of the Elohim and the Bannor and having trouble finding their own feel. And FfH is all abotu making sure every civ feels differently than the others. So definitly something need to be done there.
Yeah, we have to stop developing the mod to do that. You would be amazed at how much of the documentation we obsolete with every version. So we gotta stop the project to get it done right (AI also falls into this category though we have been making progress there in the past few versions).
Amazingly there are over 150,000 words in the pedia. Thats more than most professional games by a wide margin. Although certainly a lot of it is stories that dont have much to do with actual gameplay there is still a ton in that 150k to update each time.
Another point on this. "Fixed" quests are really the province of the scenarios. Thats where you will see more specific goals laid out for completion, not in the random game. Though in some cases the ideas we come up with for the scenarios will be ported over to the epic game if they work. Both Final Five and the High to Low "challenge options" are from scenario conditions that I thought would work as well in the epic game.
Plus some wild thought about overall, civ-wise balance:
My feeling is that Evil civs are generally stronger then Good ones,
but the evil guys are all evil in thier unique ways
- imagin an alliance between demon(fire) and Illians(ice).
So this is fine with me, with a general theme of
"weaker but allied Good vs. stronger but seperated Evil".
But there are 2 issues:
1. The hidden assumption behind the theme above is that civs does not switch their stands easily. However appearently AI consider the one more city with another religion higher then the potential diplomatic consequence after switch state religion, resluting all the funny leader-religion-good/evil combinations reported on the forum.
2. Malakim is an expection of "weaker Good" - they are too weak. It's not about the civ itself, but the fact they are born in desert. While giving Malakim bonus in combat and movement, but the lack of food dooms their development and economy. If Malakim does not expand to somewhere with ample food before they engage in a war or encroached by mighty neighbours, they will surely be eliminated in early mid-game. I think Malakim need a civ-specific improvement to increase food production in desert and/or extra food on city plot and/or +1 food in desert, with the ultimate goal to enable them producing 2 food per desert slot in the long run.
My feeling is that Evil civs are generally stronger then Good ones,
but the evil guys are all evil in thier unique ways
- imagin an alliance between demon(fire) and Illians(ice).
So this is fine with me, with a general theme of
"weaker but allied Good vs. stronger but seperated Evil".
But there are 2 issues:
1. The hidden assumption behind the theme above is that civs does not switch their stands easily. However appearently AI consider the one more city with another religion higher then the potential diplomatic consequence after switch state religion, resluting all the funny leader-religion-good/evil combinations reported on the forum.
2. Malakim is an expection of "weaker Good" - they are too weak. It's not about the civ itself, but the fact they are born in desert. While giving Malakim bonus in combat and movement, but the lack of food dooms their development and economy. If Malakim does not expand to somewhere with ample food before they engage in a war or encroached by mighty neighbours, they will surely be eliminated in early mid-game. I think Malakim need a civ-specific improvement to increase food production in desert and/or extra food on city plot and/or +1 food in desert, with the ultimate goal to enable them producing 2 food per desert slot in the long run.
LordGek
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2002
- Messages
- 520
Here here! I second that remark as I've found "quests" invariably the WEAKEST addition in BtS!
While I love the events, quests (at least as implemented in BtS) didn't work for me for a few reasons:
1) My biggest gripe being that they were simply beyond the AI's understanding (as a diehard SP only guy), so it made me feel like I was playing a game by different rules than the AI.
2) They were far too specific. Nothing was more tedious than hitting upon the same quest in another session since it felt way too much like re-reading some story. Somehow having some even reoccur any number of times isn't that big a deal as it is simply a quick "make a one time decision and move on", not the tedium of again trying to build some 10 Gallies for no apparent reason.
3) Most of them really seemed to require some major effort that usually had no relevance to your current situation. Like when you are just a struggling little 3 city empire and now you're expected to make 9 coliseums before such and such date?
