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FfH2 0.34 Change log

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. LordGek

    LordGek Prince

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    Enh, I like the idea of Civs having unique terrain based abilities but hate the concept of TOO MUCH of their uniqueness/strengths being tied to a given terrain. Like a Civ based entirely on Sea Faring but then a fish out of water if playing on a map with little water.
     
  2. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    As someone who also hates to see bad information, but has often added correct information that was made wrong the next version, I gotta say, this, while a fabulous game already, is a beta. Check the changelog, we cannot document everything completely every version, especially when we intend to change it based on feed back.
    That said, it might be a good idea to put the changelog *in* the civlopedia for reference until we are complete.

    But, being that we are almost done, it's time to get things right, I agree.
     
  3. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I do. That is one reason why I proposed that Avatats should heal 100% after winning a battle. I also think that it would be cool to let everyone build/use Ice nodes, and let him capture units that use Ice magic.

    I concur, this is one of many changes to summons that I've been pushing for a long time.

    They could use something, and those might be ok, but its not what I'd focus on. Thematically, I really think their units need to be able to challenge each other to one-on-one combat, to get free xp and probably end up killing at least of the units in this fight. I also like letting them steal weapons promotions from units they defeat in combat, and maybe getting yields/commerces from winning combat too.


    I never really thought that letting Hill Giants made a lot of sense. It makes a lot more sense for several other units, like Earth Elementals and Treants.

    Why not? I don't think that Earth should be purely defensive, as Kilmorph is also responsible for Earthquakes and that great weapon of destruction called The Mithril Golem. I don't see why earth elementals shouldn't be able to cause such destruction too. (I've also thought it could be cool Earth Elementals' deaths to (have a chance to) cast Earthquake)

    This makes very little sense to me. The Khazad can't have Mages, much less Archmages, so how are they supposed to get the Eath Elementals. (Edit: Oh yeah, I just remembered about Dwarven Druids...)

    Pointing out that the Earth Sphere civ is the best at siege to me just makes me think that is would be appropriate for the earth spell sphere civ too.


    I still think that my suggestions for the Doviello (letting them steal weapons promotions from defeated enemies and to fight amongst themselves) would be quite fun, very thematically appropriate, and not hard to implement using python. Stealing weapons would probably require you extend <PythonPostCombatWon> to promotions instead of just units (although I guess it would be ok if only thier UUs could steal weapons), but this change (which FF did a long time ago) is a very useful one.

    I still think these need some sort of special mechanics. You've probably read my Doviello ideas recently enough. I'm thinking that giving the Bannor a default race like Courage or Valor could work nicely. I'd also really like to see Bannor Confessors/Priors demonstrate their civ's old sphere by being able to call down holy fire like everyone's Order priests could a few versions ago. This would create extra incentive to follow the thematically correct religion (I'm thinking it would be nice for several civs to have thematically appropriate advantages with specific religions), and would justify keeping some of the old pedia entries like Amelanchier's.

    I still think that my idea of making Desert Shrines give more disciple xp based on the amount of desert in the city radius (even 1 xp per desert tile in the city radius together with command posts, dies diei, any level of the Altar of the Luonnatar, apprenticeship, or theocracy could let them upgrade priests to high priests immediately) would work very well for their desert mystics theme. The hardships and isolation of the deserts forces them to focus on spiritual matters. Cities stuck way out in the wilderness would be a training ground for the strongest disciples in Erebus, but they would have to stay as essentially small molestations rather than thriving cities, and their production would never be all that good. You'd have to strike a balance between the spiritual power of the desert fathers and economic concerns.

    Some other nomad/trader mechanic could be added too, but I consider the desert mystic theme to be more important.
     
  4. Keeper_GFA

    Keeper_GFA Prince

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    Doesn't the Order almost have this already? In my Order Sheaim game, most of my cities gained an Acolyte when the Order spread to them.
     
  5. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    Yes, with acolytes and then crusaders, though not priests.
    I think the religious proclivities of the good civs are easy to spell out.
    Elohim = fight only when necessary
    Bannor = fight demons & their allies
    Malakim could be those who fight to convert other mortals. Some extra units with command, for example. Combat bonus against enemy units with other religions. That sort of thing.
     
  6. Pike the Hands

    Pike the Hands Chieftain

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    So there is at least a possibility of a new project after you've shelved FfH then? You seem to have gotten a truly excellent team together in the nearly 3 years you've been working on this thing, it'd be a shame to just break up and go your separate ways. Or maybe I just think that because I'm a selfish player and want more of what you all have delivered. ;)
     
  7. Verdian

    Verdian King

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    On that note, will you still be adding bigger, multi-step quests, based on in-game happenings? For example, several months ago I wrote a quest about the Gela (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=261071), but it was too soon for quests to be added. That example is technically both an emergent quest and a "travel here/kill that" quest. Is that type of quest something that the team will be looking to add?
     
  8. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Well, to capture animals. By the time you can build a Ranger you won't find many animals around, or any at all. I actually find the promotion a lot more useful early than later, and when I upgrade to rangers I certainly don't do it to grab the subdue animal promotion ;)

    About the +1 commerce on deserts, well I don't think any civ would need incentives to work their flood plains (assuming this bonus apply to flood plains as well), on flat desert tiles per se the bonus is irrilevant, on hill desert tiles it's a gamble, I'd probably still choose to turn them to plains.
    I think the bonus would work better if it was +1 commerce in the city per desert tile in the fat square, or a more powerful one with +1 trade route every 3 desert tiles in the fat square.
     
  9. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    I heartily second this idea. I'd also recommend that you add the version and patch number to this text so that it's easy for players to see if they are up-to-date with the latest version/patch.
     
  10. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    If the Malakim bonus is only an extra commerce on Desert, could you sweeten the deal with a small health bonus as well? That would allow them to offset the health penalty of Flood Plains a little bit better than other Civilizations and avoid the main downside of settling in a heavily flooded area.
     
  11. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    Fair enough, that's quite reasonable. Yet I can't help but feel that it's a waste for the development to end "prematurely", when there are still improvements that could be made, like fleshing out the Doviello in the suggested manner. Not that FfH wouldn't be great already, but it could get one more step closer to perfection...

    But you're right, it's best to quit while you're still ahead - personally I can't wait 'till the day that all the MP OoS errors have been fixed, which probably won't happen while stuff keeps getting added. And there's always the modmods.

    (With FF getting its own forum, I keep getting this vision of a deeply nested tree of mods - first FfH, then Fall Further as a mod to that, then We Kept Falling, Now We're In The Abyss as a mod to that, with Digging Our Way Back To The Surface as a mod to that, Let's Get Back To Heaven, Shall We? as a mod to that, Oh Sh*t We Just Got Back To Heaven, Now Somebody Pushed Us Off The Cloud And Here We Go Again *Sigh* as a mod to that, and... well, you get the idea. :D)
     
  12. cyther

    cyther Lord of the Dance

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    Very interesting, I wonder how these will play out.
     
  13. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    Still hopeful that Kael + Team or someone from the the forums will come up with a decent idea for the doviello that still doesn't make them harder to grasp and is in line with their flavor...
    We have not been disappointed before imo.
    So for me there is no reason to expect it not to be so with them before Ice comes along. Even with what Kael said
    (Not because they are unflavorful but because honestly they just plain suck. And while simpleness helps learning new things for sure. Sucking and underpar features which make winning hard do very very badly in motivating new players. Civ4:Col really suffers right from that part now until it will be patched.)
    Only one of their leaders seems decently playable (and its not the barbarian one...).
    That said Chardaron might! profit a bit from the implementation of explorable lairs thanks to peace with barbs but i doubt its even remotely enough. Overall they seem like the weakest Civ of them all to me now. And not by a small margin. + Mahla just got nerfed on top of it (albeit not a huge nerf). Clearly the change to raiders hits her the hardest of all the raiders.)
    And if its just a 3rd trait each (because theirs boil down to not much more than one each honestly.) which helps both of them compete at least a bit. Or something else which is easy to grasp/straightforward but neat to do. (like some kind of scavengeing from defeated oponents / their belongings + infrastructure.)
    (That said i still bet on something rather large-scale like the balseraphs and the elhoim have received. Because i haven't seen anything differently from Kael + team. :p So unless i see proof (sucky doviello when Ice-Phase will be finished) i won't be convinced that the doviello stay as sucky as they are.)

    Bannor might! be seen as dull but if played rightly (even if that part is rather hard to grasp for them and rather late into the game + spread out) they are still midtier and at least some! kind of beginner-friendliness has its value honestly. In a game with such a steep learning curve... :)
    And the AI will still be enhanced later so i don't value civs strength on how the AI plays them honestly.



    But! one might! still hope for some improvements for the Doviello (even if its just some wonders / unique features or uniqe units/heroes) in Ice-phase because at least one of the scenario-lines (2 or 3 of the Scenarioes) seems to be about them. If they still suck to much then, those scenarioes whould lose a bit of popularity which whould be a sad thing for something the FFH2-Team puts so much work and sweat into.
     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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  15. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    The approaching finish of adding further large-scale features leads me to another question:

    Is there a reasonable chance, that the last 3 nonimplemented spheres of magic will be implemented before FFH 2 is completed (and be it in Ice)?

    If it might pose a problem / you lack fitting ideas (which is rather unlikely :p) for those, just start a contest (when the most vigorous phase of initial playtesting / first 2 or 3 weeks of 0.34 have passed).
    I am without doubt that in very few time you whould get enough ideas in the forums to make another 5 spheres with balanced and interesting spells if those were! necessary... (and fitting / thematic ones as well if you describe the spheres well enough.)
    Fewer work involved for the Team on the issue / more time to get other important things done and squashing some serious bugs.

    Wild ideas and discussions might yield alot. But a focused call / contest likely delivers a lot more. (even easier when you have plans for certain spells / tiers allready and just need to fill a few gaps to make it play out well.)
     
  16. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    I like making Varn Spiritual, since it fits with the desert priests theme. Wouldn't Financial be a better second trait than Creative, though? Would reflect the Malakim's trading prowess, no? (I know you can later switch to Financial because of the Adaptive trait, but still. Just wondering.)
     
  17. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Varn is adapctive so you can pick whatever you want for him. I thought creative was the best way to start him, but when your first choice to change comes around you can opt to go financial or with whatever works for you. I went expansive in my last game, which worked pretty well.
     
  18. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    agreed that Varn should be Spiritual instead of Creative. I love Creative, it's probably my favourite trait, but spritual fits Varn sooo much better. :D Elohim should definitely get spiritual as well ;)

    hey, maybe a simple way of making the malakim more interesting would be giving them spiritual, financial AND adaptive ( starts at creative ) . if it's not overpowered of course ;)
     
  19. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Why not just give everyone a third trait (adaptive don't count towards this), and make Perp get 4 random traits instead of 3?
     
  20. kumquatelvis

    kumquatelvis Prince

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    Too many traits and you start losing differentiation.
     

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