FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nevermind

 

[Mailbox]

This is a very large thread so I'm sorry if it's been mentioned before but camp resources are currently very hard to link up in the early game because hunting is such an expensive tech. Perhaps moving the ability to build camps back to exploration would solve this problem, as there are several level 1 techs that provide resources.

 

[Senethro]

This is a very large thread so I'm sorry if it's been mentioned before but camp resources are currently very hard to link up in the early game because hunting is such an expensive tech. Perhaps moving the ability to build camps back to exploration would solve this problem, as there are several level 1 techs that provide resources.

I'm not sure this would be a complete solution as it would still cause Hunters to arrive somewhat late compared to the superior Axemen and Horsemen. (And when your unit is inferior to horsemen, you've got a problem.)

I propose cutting Exploration, making Hunting a tech with no pre-requisites
Cartography would be renamed Exploration, have Hunting as a pre-req, and techs that formerly had Hunting as a pre-req would have the new Exploration as a pre-req.
Road building would not have a tech requirement.
I'll put up some exact numbers for tech costs in a bit.

 

[Tasunke]

this is quite odd, since in classic start you always start with hunting, but have to research further to get the other combat units. Am I missing something here? I was pretty sure hunters were the EASIEST to aquire.

 

[phildev]

It would be interesting to play as the barbarians especially when apocalypse units enter the game. Could a mechanic be added so that human players could play as the barbarians?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed, that would be extremely cool.

 

[Grey Fox]

One way is to play as the Clan of Embers

 

[phildev]

One way is to play as the Clan of Embers

Yes but the Clan of Embers cannot use The Avatar of Wrath, Iras, or other apocalypse units like the barbarians can.

 

[WCH]

In I think it's Warlords there's a mod where you play as barbarians. Is that the kind of thing that could possibly be adapted to work with FfH2?

 

[Bob the Barbari]

Judging from the name of this thread it is the right place to express my concern regarding Paramenders and Crusaders.
First let me compare them:

Paramender
Cost: 120, requires Copper and Temple of Kilmorph
Strength: 7
Starting promotions: Demon Slaying, Medic I

Crusader
Cost: 120, requires Copper or Iron or Mithril, Temple of the Order
Strength: 6 +1 Holy
Starting promotions: Demon Slaying, Medic I, Immune to Disease.

As you can see everything Paramender can do a Crusader does better or equally good with the exception of killing Angels. Additionally Crusaders can be built with any metal while Paramenders require Copper. Paramenders can be upgraded from Soldiers of Kilmorph thus getting Dwarven (and other promotions if any).

My problem is that Paramenders seem like a little worse copy of Crusaders. Perhaps they could be given something to make them more distinct.

My suggestions would include:
Earth II (Stoneskin) perhaps at the cost of one of the other promotions (Medic, Demon Slaying)
Medic II instead of Medic I
Less strength but the ability to use weapons.
Ability to join the city as Great Engineer at level 6+ (perhaps more).

 

[cabbagemeister]

Judging from the name of this thread it is the right place to express my concern regarding Paramenders and Crusaders.
First let me compare them:

Paramender
Cost: 120, requires Copper and Temple of Kilmorph
Strength: 7
Starting promotions: Demon Slaying, Medic I

Crusader
Cost: 120, requires Copper or Iron or Mithril, Temple of the Order
Strength: 6 +1 Holy
Starting promotions: Demon Slaying, Medic I, Immune to Disease.

As you can see everything Paramender can do a Crusader does better or equally good with the exception of killing Angels. Additionally Crusaders can be built with any metal while Paramenders require Copper. Paramenders can be upgraded from Soldiers of Kilmorph thus getting Dwarven (and other promotions if any).

My problem is that Paramenders seem like a little worse copy of Crusaders. Perhaps they could be given something to make them more distinct.

My suggestions would include:
Earth II (Stoneskin) perhaps at the cost of one of the other promotions (Medic, Demon Slaying)
Medic II instead of Medic I
Less strength but the ability to use weapons.
Ability to join the city as Great Engineer at level 6+ (perhaps more).

This is a commonly brought up complaint. You're absolutely right that Paramanders are worse than Crusaders. However, it should be noted that unlike in Vanilla Civ, in FFH no attempt is made to perfectly balance similar units. Mechanics in FFH are balanced at the macro level, not the micro level. In other words, Paramanders are mediocre, sure, but this is balanced by the fact that an RoK player will usually have a MUCH better economy than an Order player, as well as earlier access to Iron, an earlier hero, etc etc.

 

[WCH]

I don't think I've ever built a single Paramender in any of then many games I've played as RoK. I guess I tend to ignore religious military units in general... I've used Fawns for defending my borders, but generally what religion means to me is its effect on the economy: if I want lots of health I go FoL, if I want lots of gold I go RoK. I've won as Empyrean before too, and tried playing as Order/Veil and had it end badly a couple times... but yeah.

Order definitely seems to be a lot more militaristic than RoK. That's why I've tried to play it in the past... and I'm intending to do so again for my next game (before I was waiting for Blight to get fixed, now I'm waiting for the AI upgrade ). RoK is about gold, I tell you! Goooollllld! And some iron, 'cos why not. If I'm playing RoK, I'm probably going to be going melee line to make good use of that early iron, and I'd rather Champions than Paramanders. Order on the other hand is about killing unbelievers, so giving you a useful new unit for just that is a good call.

 

[phildev]

Should immortal units reappear after they get killed by the Armageddon event? It’s pretty annoying when your heroic vampire lords die and do not come back after the Armageddon event.

 

[Jet]

I'm one of the people who think Industrious stinks, especially after the changes to the Great Library and Pact of the Nilhorn.

A criticism I haven't seen (although I think I'm at risk of stating the obvious here) is that the Forge bonus is anti-synergistic with the Guild of Hammers. You could argue that it gives Industrious leaders an opportunity to tech something besides Engineering, but I think it's ugly. The Guild of Hammers is a little overpowered anyway, so if I'm playing Industrious it just makes me more likely to tech Engineering. To me it feels like the Forge bonus is wasted.

Let me go leader-by-leader, partly in response to GreyFox's defense of Industrious in post #119.
Capria: I don't think GreyFox's statement about a "totally different play style" actually gave any reason why Capria is good with Industrious. I don't see any synergy with her other stuff.
Arturus: Synergy with a few specific wonders (HE + Titan + Brewhouse + Organized; Guild + forges; Slums + vaults). But he's up against Agg/Fin, which on the whole is much stronger.
Sandalphon: Synergy with any source of GPP, and the three specialist wonders. But less so after the Great Library nerf.
Cassiel: synergy with Philosophical, but that's balanced against adventurer GPP, and wonders in general aren't that great, and some don't give GPP; and Cassiel is also restricted by Agnostic allowing fewer specialist GPP from temples. And now you basically can't build any wonders at all in the first 100 turns.
Os-Gabella: Good synergy (better than Arturus's synergy) with three particular wonders and that's it.
Beeri: Synergy with just settling the great engineers in his engineer farm and using that city to slow-build wonders. But to me that's ugly in the same ironic way as the Guild of Hammers/Forge thing.

Suggestion: change the trait to a flat +25% production on all buildings. (Or +20%.) It fits the way FFH has expensive buildings and fewer good wonders. I think this would make Industrious more fun, with its own niche, and better balanced; and it's a lot easier than redesigning the wonders.

 

[Tasunke]

Interesting thoughts on the Industrious traits. I suppose it *could* be +10% for each resource (copper, iron, and marble), for a possible 30% bonus on buildings in the late game.

industrious could also build siegeworkshops, and forges with extra speed.

 

[Emptiness]

A criticism I haven't seen (although I think I'm at risk of stating the obvious here) is that the Forge bonus is anti-synergistic with the Guild of Hammers. You could argue that it gives Industrious leaders an opportunity to tech something besides Engineering, but I think it's ugly.

If you are beaten to the Guild and have to build your forges individually then being Industrious makes that easier. Also, if you want to build a forge before you have researched Engineering then the bonus is helpful.

Personally I think the wonder bonus makes it a good trait, but then I tend to build a lot of wonders. That said, I don't think a flat bonus to building construction would be bad. The exact amount would need to be carefully adjusted to ensure that it didn't become too powerful.

 

[Senethro]

Nearly all buildings need about a 25-30% cut in their hammer costs!

Inns could get a 50% cut.
Are dungeons still in the game? They could just be simply cut.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah a 25% cut on most buildings sounds needed. I hate the 120 hammer cost on Granaries for example, when you need to put in another 120 hammers to get the improvement in growth you were looking for (and only 40% saved food compared to 50% from vanilla civ).

 

[Elyssaen]

I agree on Granaries and Smokehouses. The Granary was perhaps too strong in normal Civ 4, but in Fall from Heaven I so far only bother building them at all if I'm playing the Calabim, or when I've already basically won and optimising city production would only be more micromanagement keeping me from having my massive army conquer the stragglers (that's the only time I start to build Inns, also, as the AI's opinion of how awesome it is to build them is exactly opposite to mine).

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Are dungeons still in the game? They could just be simply cut.

Hell no. War weariness can get really bad in FfH and the tower of eyes isn't always an option.