FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Garrym Gyr badly needs a trait change. aside from the fact that defender is a crappy trait and cannot be compared to beeri's industrious, Golems get nothing at all from it because they get no unitcombat. it seems to be a nasty overlook when it was decided to give him defender instead of arcane.

 

[Emptiness]

I agree, and don't see a problem with GG being Arcane/Financial. If for some reason there is, or if he needs to have the Defender trait for some reason then I would suggest that Defender should offer some additional benefit specific to golems (for instance, all golems receive +10% when defending). This would allow all his units to receive some benefit from the trait without making the trait stronger in the hands of other leaders.

 

[Sephi]

I think Defender is more useful for Garrym. Helps out in the beginning until he has sorcery. warriors and the archer UU both benefit from it and cheaper palisades is always nice.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Don't forget how the Luchuirp tend to GE most of their wonders and never lose the race to the guild of hammers and as such industrious is crap for them, and how the bulk of the Luchuirp's useful spellcasting is golems + enchantment 1 adepts, which Arcane doesn't help with at all.

It's an interesting balance point, really. Ind/Def/Arc are the worst traits you could give this civ. To balance out financial and the strength of golems, especially post sorcery, they get stuck with these trash traits.

Remember Spi/Org Beeri? He was just sick.

 

[loocas]

I agree with monkeyfinger that their secondary traits are counterintuitive, but I wouldn't call them trash. What I think they ought to do is encourage different uses of living units for the Luchuirp.

Arcane fits GG's backstory and the extra magic power is great for him, especially getting those adepts up to stoneskin.

Defender isn't wasted on them because the golems miss out; their mounted line benefit greatly from the extra strength and withdrawal, and they make up for the golems slowness. I think Defender would fir BB better than GG, since he's probably very bitter after his time with Perp and would be defensive.

Guild of Hammers and Gift of Nan. do cancel out Industrious, but it's still powerful until then. Financial is powerful enough as an empire-boosting trait and Industrious just adds to that, making the choice between GG and BB as they currently are pretty lopsided.

They should each have Financial as the civ's trait, in a way, but then they should differ with a military boosting trait: Arcane for GG and Defender for BB.

They should have the boost to living units because while golems are very powerful at what they're good at, their lack of mobility makes golem-heavy civ vulnerable to mounted pillagers ruining production. Arcane and Defender help with that. The Fireballs are the only thing that borders on overpowered.

/2

 

[loocas]

I know I'm late to the party in realizing that Gov Manors work per angry pop, not per angry citizen, but I think it's nuts. It's absurdly overpowered, which I know isn't a term in FFH's vocabulary, but it unnecessarily overpowered for the already overpowered Calabim.

I had assumed that it was +1 hammer per angry citizen. That meant you got extra hammers when you overfed a city or let it grow unchecked. I thought it was a flavorful little perk for an oppressive society. I was building them for the -maintenance and the vampires anyway. But it's actually like having 2 inherent Slaverys for each city.

I say the Pillar of Chains ought to function per unhappy pop, while the Manors should be per unhappy citizen. That's an extreme nerf I know, but there you go.

I've read through the older threads dedicated to this. Sorry to bring up an already-debated topic, but it's just nuts.

 

[Tasunke]

Calabim are indeed teh bomb. They need it for the lulz. Oh ... and to combat Firebowz

 

[Senethro]

Firebows are practically a Tier 4 unit though. First you need the firebow - a Tier 3 unit. Then for a good metal, you need Iron Working, which is the most expensive Tier 3 technology. Then you need Govannon to turn them into standardised Mage replacements. Only the dragon-hero civs have something that powerful hidden high up the tech tree. And in the end, they can still be slaughtered by a Dispel Mage removing their Stoneskin and a horde of Hasted Champions hitting them in their own turn from outside fireball range.

For everyone else, the Amurites are a calculated risk. Can you fight all the more urgent threats now and gain enough of an advantage that you can bring down firebows through sheer numbers. Thats quite a different prospect from 1 free hammer/population from Turn 100 onwards.

 

[Emptiness]

It's not entirely free. They pay for it with higher maintenance costs, since the Manor only has a 20% reduction instead of 40% like the courthouse. Of course this is usually a very small cost to pay for the benefit, but after all it is their UB and so one can expect it to be worthwhile. In theory Calabim cities are going to be hurting for because they will be running Aristograrian and farming every scrap of flat ground they can; the Manor makes it possible to do that and still have a city that actually has some production too.

 

[loocas]

In theory Calabim cities are going to be hurting for because they will be running Aristograrian and farming every scrap of flat ground they can.

That's what I consider balance. On the same token the dwarves sometimes have a hard time with food; they don't need a crutch, and neither do the Lanun. Farming humans should be an option when specializing cities. It's eliminating the need to choose and specialize by effectively giving every plot 1 hammer and then some.

They pay for it with higher maintenance costs, since the Manor only has a 20% reduction instead of 40% like the courthouse. Of course this is usually a very small cost to pay for the benefit

Very true. The higher maintenance hurts, but the hammers more than compensate. EDIT: It's got -25% war weariness too.

 

[Senethro]

It's not entirely free. They pay for it with higher maintenance costs, since the Manor only has a 20% reduction instead of 40% like the courthouse. Of course this is usually a very small cost to pay for the benefit, but after all it is their UB and so one can expect it to be worthwhile.

I only build Courthouses when the gold return/hammer from it would be better than that of a Market. With good Summer and Winter palace placement, this is often never. So, I don't consider 20% less cost reduction much of a nerf.

In theory Calabim cities are going to be hurting for because they will be running Aristograrian and farming every scrap of flat ground they can; the Manor makes it possible to do that and still have a city that actually has some production too.

Will they be farming all the hills and plains/forest tiles as well? Because paying 3 food to get 1 hammer from an angry citizen doesn't sound like a good exchange to me. Yes, there will be designated feeding cities doing things like this, but it won't be standard practice.

 

[civ_king]

I only build Courthouses when the gold return/hammer from it would be better than that of a Market. With good Summer and Winter palace placement, this is often never. So, I don't consider 20% less cost reduction much of a nerf.


Will they be farming all the hills and plains/forest tiles as well? Because paying 3 food to get 1 hammer from an angry citizen doesn't sound like a good exchange to me. Yes, there will be designated feeding cities doing things like this, but it won't be standard practice.

how it works

10 pop=10 unhappiness
12 happiness-10 unhappy= 2 happy meaning no unhappy people
10 unhappy=10 hammers with manor...

manor pay back= 120/1xpop (120 is what I remember)

so that might be less than 20 turns payback... at which point it is a major net+

also more production per city=less cities needed=less maintenance=makes up for less -maintenance

*snip* On the same token the dwarves sometimes have a hard time with food; they don't need a crutch, and neither do the Lanun. *snip*

make mushrooms a resource and have them spawn on Erebus maps, problem solved

 

[Tasunke]

Senethro, you underestimate me. Firebows NEVER deal in direct combat. The only battle is using fireballs.

If you use that logic, you don't REALLY need ironworking, and you dont REALLY need govannon. Iron working would certainly help, Govannon on the other hand, I don't think is worth the investment (for firebow buffs).

The firebow's strength is possible because of its ability to cast fireballs with 2 free xp. I don't think there is any argument that firebows are better than mages in almost every way.

The only minor discrepency is that you do not believe that Firebows are worth the effort to beeline Bowyers, and instead you wait till you already have a decent "normal" army with Iron and Mages (for the buffs you think are needed)

its certainly possible to defeat the firebows, but to delve into their power is not as hard as you would make it sound.

 

[grayrest]

I don't think there is any argument that firebows are better than mages in almost every way.

I prefer mages to firebows if I can get 3+ nodes. It's 90 and 45 for the mage vs 120 for the firebow but you get the affinity promotions, an extra 2 promotions, plus the potency xp gain. I find that Combat V mages compare favorably to Combat I bronze Firebows both for the primary fireball attack and for stack cleanup.

If I don't have the nodes, I research bowyers for the firebows, do mines for the iron, and GP the arcane line (research KoTE, Bulb alteration, partially bulb Sorc with the drama bard, 2x Bulb KotE). Costs me the Form and Military Strategy GComm, but it's the fast route to super firebows.

 

[Sephi]

I know I'm late to the party in realizing that Gov Manors work per angry pop, not per angry citizen, but I think it's nuts. It's absurdly overpowered, which I know isn't a term in FFH's vocabulary, but it unnecessarily overpowered for the already overpowered Calabim.

I think it has been mentioned every now and then. How would you balance it?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Compromise: let them produce 1/2 hammer per angry pop?

 

[Bill Bisco]

Compromise: let them produce 1/2 hammer per angry pop?

How would you know that's any more balanced than 1 hammer per pop?

 

[Lone Wolf]

How would you know that's any more balanced than 1 hammer per pop?

Well, if 1 per pop supposedly makes it too strong, then making it weaker should be at least somewhat more balanced. Unless you're suggesting that with 1/2 per pop they're too weak.

 

[loocas]

I think it has been mentioned every now and then. How would you balance it?

I'd be fine with it being net unhappy mad: - ). That lessens the gain drastically, which is necessary for such a cheap building (for Flauros), and makes the gain somewhat situational. It's already useful for its -maintenance, -ww, and vampires. The Manor is better than some wonders right now.

And like I said, keep Pillar of Chains the way it is. Then even the Calabim would have reason to build it. (Kinda funny how it's Flauros's wonder in its pedia, but he has no reason to build it.)

 

[Bill Bisco]

Well, if 1 per pop supposedly makes it too strong, then making it weaker should be at least somewhat more balanced. Unless you're suggesting that with 1/2 per pop they're too weak.

What I'm saying is that I'm not seeing any analysis as to why 1 per pop is unbalanced nor am I seeing any analysis as to why 1/2 per pop is any more or less unbalanced. In Industry this is called tampering, where you just fidgit with a bunch of stuff hoping that it makes stuff better without really knowing if its better at all.