Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
Multiplayer. You can select the same Civ. Every Civ needs to accomodate for a scenario where all players play the same Civilization.
Depends on which Civ game, but I have at least 20 in every session.
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Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches
- Thread starter Lord Lakely
- Start date
Depends on which Civ game, but I have at least 20 in every session.
ehecatzin
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,863
My list was way to ambitious, but I'd argue mesoamerica needs at least 2 intertwined lines: Highlands and Isthmus/Mayan Heartland. The whole advantage of using Spearthrower Owl as a leader is that he bridges those 2 cultural areas. at the very least we need Teotihuacan in antiquity.
Revised compact list would be something like:
Antiquity
Teotihuacan
Maya
Exploration
Mexica
Itza or Zapotec
j51
Blue Star Cadet
A Mesoamerican line up like that would be awesome. I hope we get it!
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
An expanded Meso-american line would get my approval. Just bear in mind that this particular topic is about plugging the holes that already exist, not necessarily creating new lines.
I think I'll take a look at the rest of Asia this afternoon.
I think I'll take a look at the rest of Asia this afternoon.
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
East-Asia
Alright, so I would like to start this post by charting what lines we already have. Unlike West-Asia, which has a few bottlenecks, East Asia already has what I would call the beginnings of a fully rounded roster. I'd organize it like this:
India and China have completed lines, as we all know. Mongolia provides an intermediate stage for the Chinese and Indian endpoints (Mughal and Qing), while India also have a secondary end: Nepal.
Conversely, the unreleased Silla are the only representation of Korea, while Japan only exist in the modern age as the Meiji empire.
In South-East Asia, Khmer, Dai Viet, Majapahit and Siam form a regional blob. While there is a lot of diversity in the amount of cultures represented it might be worth untangling some of them.
I personally believe, and feel free to disagree with me, that East Asia needs the following:
I dont want to mess too much with the Indian or Chinese lines as they are complete across all three ages, though I will touch upon that the Indian Subcontinent probably deserves to be a six-Civ region, with an additional Civ in Antiquity and Exploration to balance out Maurya and Chola, and provide some breathing room for Ashoka and Lakshmibai once Gandhi is (inevitably) added to the game as a Leader. The Gupta and Gurjara look like the best choices for me, but I'm always interested in more options, like the Maratha (which are probably better suited for Modern).
Japan, like China and India, should be a straight-forward three stage line. Strictly from the perspective of Japan itself, the line should look like this:
Whichever Antiquity Japan and Shogunate is chosen matters less to me, as long as the bonuses are interesting. If Firaxis are eyeing someone as a secondary Japanese leader though, it should affect the choice in Exploration: Hojo Tokimune or Hojo Masako should lead to Kamakura Japan, and Tokugawa, Hideyoshi or Nobunaga should lead to Edo Japan.
If we look at things from Himiko's perspective however, it's a little bit different. Himiko's native Civilization isn't Modern Japan, but whatever the choice in Antiquity is. Yamatai is the most correct choice there, but Yamatai itself is very poorly attested. Heian Japan is a better documented period of Japanese history and might be an acceptable native-by-proxy choice for Himiko, kind of how Songhai is an acceptable 'native' choice for Amina over the Zazzau Kingdom.
Himiko is particularly interesting because she's very well attested in Chinese records, which could make her a secondary leader of the Chinese line, alongside Confucius. So, a Himiko centric pathway could look like this:
If a second Japanese leader were to be added, then mapping out Himiko's choices like this would allow her to lead the Chinese line in game where both she and the second Japanese leader are present.
What I've done next at this point is dabble a bit with the other lines near Japan: Korea and China, and came to the conclusion that having three Koreas might be a bit too difficult.
Of course, Korean posters here have made wonderful work outlining possible scenarios for a Silla => Goryeo => Joseon line. GDR_Willter has made three theorycrafts on the subject, which I'll link below:
Silla
Goryeo
Joseon
Which is honestly, fantastic work. But GDR_Willter is Korean himself, and its easier to create such designs for your native culture, which you're much more familiar with.
However, I would like to propose an alternative idea. Personally, I don't like the idea of Modern Joseon. The Joseon dynasty reached its heights before Civ7's Modern Age, which would make the player play a Civilization in a state of decline, which I think goes against the philosophy of picking Civs. I would put Joseon in Exploration, the age that not only fits their gilded age, but also suits their prospective kit (which could include the Hwa'cha, Geobukseon and/or Seowon, depending on what the Silla get).
This however creates a problem because what Civ would be a natural transition for the Joseon? Not the Meiji Japanese, for obvious reasons. Not the Qing either, who descent from the Mongols and the Jurchens, two enemies of Korea.
If only we had a neutral option in East Asia for Modern that most lines could converge towards with little controversy.
And as it happens, we do have a candidate Civ for that. And they already have a leader in the game. What if we solved by making the Philippines an end point for Silla?
The Philippines can serve as a neutral end point for most East Asian lines, that don't want to combine with each other and gives Rizal his native Civ, instead of being awkwardly tied to Hawaii and Majapahit.
Note that I don't necessarily think the Civ it should should be called 'Philippines'. It can also be a Filipino faction, like the Sulu.
The more I think about it, the more I believe the Philippines are a high priority modern inclusion for the region.
But I would love to hear feedback from both the Korean and Filipino users here.
With Rizal resolved, we can also now resolve Confucius's lines: I believe every leader should have two options available to them every age, except for the age that has their "native" Civ. For Kong, this is the Han, and his default line should go towards Ming and Qing.
Confucius however, can also lead the Korean Civs. Korean leaders in Civ are traditionally aligned with the Confucianism religion (Sejong and Wang Kon both had it as their default prefered religion), so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have Confucius to lead the Korean line if a second Chinese leader were to be added (and I'd say that chance is fairly high).
So with China, India, Japan, Korea and Mongolia all having been given suggestions, I'll now move on to South East Asia. SEA has been getting a lot of love with these updates, and that's a good thing. It's an overlooked part of the world that I'm not very knowledgable about, and I like learning more things about them.
The problem with SEA though is that it's current design is trying to shove several fairly distinct cultures into one line (one could argue the same of India, but India at least *exists* as a unified entity right now). One could argue whether the Khmer, Siamese, Vietnamese and Indonesians should be lumped into the same group.
Now, the way the game divides them is by making the Khmer the main 'Source' Civilization, which is anachronisitic but tolerable. It's not entirely clear where the timeline began for Vietnam (arguably in Antiquity, but the game HAS put them in Exploration), and Funan, which could be the predecessor Civ to Khmer is -as per Andrew Johnson- not well enough attested - it's unclear whether they were Khmer, south Chinese or some other culture in the region.
So Khmer I think is fine as an Antiquity Civ, but I would argue that SEA should have at least one other to facilitate the transition into the two Exploration civs, Majapahit and Dai Viet. The fact that the Chola are ALSO bouncing around in SEA doesn't make things easier. So I'd argue that SEA needs at least one more Antiquity and one more Modern Civ.
Antiquity has a few options that I (person with limited knowledge about the region) know of - the Champa and the Sri Vijaya. The Champa are the native inhabitants of central Vietnam and are contemporaneous with the Khmer, which makes them a prime candidate for the Antiquity Civ. The alternative I propose, is an entity from Sumatra, either the Melayu Kingdom or the Sri Vijaya Kingdom, both of which can facilitate a start for Majapahit and the Chola.
Then we get to the Modern age. Malaysia and Indonesia immediately jump out as options, though both might be a tad too modern. However, the Civ itself doesn't have to be called that way - there are plenty of Islamic Sultanates in present-day Malaysia and Indonesia that lasted well into the 20th Century, including:
Additionally, we of course also have the Filipino Civ that can serve as another end point for SEA.
On mainland SEA, there are also a few options. Burma (Taungoo) exists, but it really straddles the line between what should be Exploration or Modern, being that its peak was during the late half of the 16th century. Burma might be better off in Exploration as the Bagan Kingdom, if it's ever added. Laos, on the other hand could be in Modern, as the 'Luang Prabang' kingdom. The existence of Siam kind of makes it diffcult to go for other polities, as the Siamese controlled most of Burma and Cambodia. The only other options that I see is Modern Vietnam, but I wonder whether the game actually needs two Vietnamese Civs...
So in sum, this is the expanded diagram with my suggestions:
Also in the subject of Tibet: if included, goes in Exploration and leads towards Nepal. It will never be included for political reasons though, so I'm not sure who I am addressing with this (modders? :nods sagely: modders.)
In sum, I think the highest priorities are:
Suggested inclusions for the longterm would be:
Leader Suggestions:
It's a more rambly post, but I'm less knowledgeable about this part of the world. Eager to learn more from you all!
Alright, so I would like to start this post by charting what lines we already have. Unlike West-Asia, which has a few bottlenecks, East Asia already has what I would call the beginnings of a fully rounded roster. I'd organize it like this:
India and China have completed lines, as we all know. Mongolia provides an intermediate stage for the Chinese and Indian endpoints (Mughal and Qing), while India also have a secondary end: Nepal.
Conversely, the unreleased Silla are the only representation of Korea, while Japan only exist in the modern age as the Meiji empire.
In South-East Asia, Khmer, Dai Viet, Majapahit and Siam form a regional blob. While there is a lot of diversity in the amount of cultures represented it might be worth untangling some of them.
I personally believe, and feel free to disagree with me, that East Asia needs the following:
- Korea needs at minimum a second stage
- Japan needs a representative Civ in all three ages
- South East Asia needs to be reorganized.
I dont want to mess too much with the Indian or Chinese lines as they are complete across all three ages, though I will touch upon that the Indian Subcontinent probably deserves to be a six-Civ region, with an additional Civ in Antiquity and Exploration to balance out Maurya and Chola, and provide some breathing room for Ashoka and Lakshmibai once Gandhi is (inevitably) added to the game as a Leader. The Gupta and Gurjara look like the best choices for me, but I'm always interested in more options, like the Maratha (which are probably better suited for Modern).
Japan, like China and India, should be a straight-forward three stage line. Strictly from the perspective of Japan itself, the line should look like this:
Whichever Antiquity Japan and Shogunate is chosen matters less to me, as long as the bonuses are interesting. If Firaxis are eyeing someone as a secondary Japanese leader though, it should affect the choice in Exploration: Hojo Tokimune or Hojo Masako should lead to Kamakura Japan, and Tokugawa, Hideyoshi or Nobunaga should lead to Edo Japan.
If we look at things from Himiko's perspective however, it's a little bit different. Himiko's native Civilization isn't Modern Japan, but whatever the choice in Antiquity is. Yamatai is the most correct choice there, but Yamatai itself is very poorly attested. Heian Japan is a better documented period of Japanese history and might be an acceptable native-by-proxy choice for Himiko, kind of how Songhai is an acceptable 'native' choice for Amina over the Zazzau Kingdom.
Himiko is particularly interesting because she's very well attested in Chinese records, which could make her a secondary leader of the Chinese line, alongside Confucius. So, a Himiko centric pathway could look like this:
If a second Japanese leader were to be added, then mapping out Himiko's choices like this would allow her to lead the Chinese line in game where both she and the second Japanese leader are present.
What I've done next at this point is dabble a bit with the other lines near Japan: Korea and China, and came to the conclusion that having three Koreas might be a bit too difficult.
Of course, Korean posters here have made wonderful work outlining possible scenarios for a Silla => Goryeo => Joseon line. GDR_Willter has made three theorycrafts on the subject, which I'll link below:
Silla
Goryeo
Joseon
Which is honestly, fantastic work. But GDR_Willter is Korean himself, and its easier to create such designs for your native culture, which you're much more familiar with.
However, I would like to propose an alternative idea. Personally, I don't like the idea of Modern Joseon. The Joseon dynasty reached its heights before Civ7's Modern Age, which would make the player play a Civilization in a state of decline, which I think goes against the philosophy of picking Civs. I would put Joseon in Exploration, the age that not only fits their gilded age, but also suits their prospective kit (which could include the Hwa'cha, Geobukseon and/or Seowon, depending on what the Silla get).
This however creates a problem because what Civ would be a natural transition for the Joseon? Not the Meiji Japanese, for obvious reasons. Not the Qing either, who descent from the Mongols and the Jurchens, two enemies of Korea.
If only we had a neutral option in East Asia for Modern that most lines could converge towards with little controversy.
And as it happens, we do have a candidate Civ for that. And they already have a leader in the game. What if we solved by making the Philippines an end point for Silla?
The Philippines can serve as a neutral end point for most East Asian lines, that don't want to combine with each other and gives Rizal his native Civ, instead of being awkwardly tied to Hawaii and Majapahit.
Note that I don't necessarily think the Civ it should should be called 'Philippines'. It can also be a Filipino faction, like the Sulu.
The more I think about it, the more I believe the Philippines are a high priority modern inclusion for the region.
But I would love to hear feedback from both the Korean and Filipino users here.
With Rizal resolved, we can also now resolve Confucius's lines: I believe every leader should have two options available to them every age, except for the age that has their "native" Civ. For Kong, this is the Han, and his default line should go towards Ming and Qing.
Confucius however, can also lead the Korean Civs. Korean leaders in Civ are traditionally aligned with the Confucianism religion (Sejong and Wang Kon both had it as their default prefered religion), so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have Confucius to lead the Korean line if a second Chinese leader were to be added (and I'd say that chance is fairly high).
So with China, India, Japan, Korea and Mongolia all having been given suggestions, I'll now move on to South East Asia. SEA has been getting a lot of love with these updates, and that's a good thing. It's an overlooked part of the world that I'm not very knowledgable about, and I like learning more things about them.
The problem with SEA though is that it's current design is trying to shove several fairly distinct cultures into one line (one could argue the same of India, but India at least *exists* as a unified entity right now). One could argue whether the Khmer, Siamese, Vietnamese and Indonesians should be lumped into the same group.
Now, the way the game divides them is by making the Khmer the main 'Source' Civilization, which is anachronisitic but tolerable. It's not entirely clear where the timeline began for Vietnam (arguably in Antiquity, but the game HAS put them in Exploration), and Funan, which could be the predecessor Civ to Khmer is -as per Andrew Johnson- not well enough attested - it's unclear whether they were Khmer, south Chinese or some other culture in the region.
So Khmer I think is fine as an Antiquity Civ, but I would argue that SEA should have at least one other to facilitate the transition into the two Exploration civs, Majapahit and Dai Viet. The fact that the Chola are ALSO bouncing around in SEA doesn't make things easier. So I'd argue that SEA needs at least one more Antiquity and one more Modern Civ.
Antiquity has a few options that I (person with limited knowledge about the region) know of - the Champa and the Sri Vijaya. The Champa are the native inhabitants of central Vietnam and are contemporaneous with the Khmer, which makes them a prime candidate for the Antiquity Civ. The alternative I propose, is an entity from Sumatra, either the Melayu Kingdom or the Sri Vijaya Kingdom, both of which can facilitate a start for Majapahit and the Chola.
Then we get to the Modern age. Malaysia and Indonesia immediately jump out as options, though both might be a tad too modern. However, the Civ itself doesn't have to be called that way - there are plenty of Islamic Sultanates in present-day Malaysia and Indonesia that lasted well into the 20th Century, including:
- Aceh
- Brunei
- Kelantan
- Mataram
- Ternate
- Tidore
Additionally, we of course also have the Filipino Civ that can serve as another end point for SEA.
On mainland SEA, there are also a few options. Burma (Taungoo) exists, but it really straddles the line between what should be Exploration or Modern, being that its peak was during the late half of the 16th century. Burma might be better off in Exploration as the Bagan Kingdom, if it's ever added. Laos, on the other hand could be in Modern, as the 'Luang Prabang' kingdom. The existence of Siam kind of makes it diffcult to go for other polities, as the Siamese controlled most of Burma and Cambodia. The only other options that I see is Modern Vietnam, but I wonder whether the game actually needs two Vietnamese Civs...
So in sum, this is the expanded diagram with my suggestions:
Also in the subject of Tibet: if included, goes in Exploration and leads towards Nepal. It will never be included for political reasons though, so I'm not sure who I am addressing with this (modders? :nods sagely: modders.)
In sum, I think the highest priorities are:
- Philippines, as a neutral end point for all regional lines + a native Civ for José Rizal
- The inclusion of Joseon in either Exploration or Modern
- The inclusion of Japan in both Antiquity and Exploration (Heian/Yamatai + Edo/Kamakura)
Suggested inclusions for the longterm would be:
- The introduction of two Antiquity Civs in SEA to make the Khmer less of a bottleneck Civ
- Burma and Laos to pad out the terrestial line in SEA.
- Malaysia to provide a historic endpoint for Majapahit
- The expansion of India by adding one more Antiquity and one more Exploration Civ for the subcontinent. (required once the game adds Gandhi)
Leader Suggestions:
- Anawrahta: founder of the Bagan Kingdom, considered the father of the Burmese state (include when Burma is included)
- Araniko: Kublai Khan's Nepali court painter, probably the best choice for a Nepali leader.
- Korean Leader: Sejong, Seondeok, ...
- Indonesian or Malay Leader: plenty of options there, but I go with Gajah Mada.
- Siamese leader: Taksin, Ramkhamhaeng,...
- Second Chinese leader: Liu Bang, Wu Zetian, Kangxi Emperor,...
- Second Japanese leader: Hojo Masako, Mutsuhito, Tokugawa,...
- The Chinese leader should be an Emperor
- The Japanese leader should be a warrior of some kind.
It's a more rambly post, but I'm less knowledgeable about this part of the world. Eager to learn more from you all!
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Heian Japan and Edo Japan get my vote personally, solely based off of interesting gameplay mechanics. Heian Japan is known for being the golden age of classical Japanese literature, so unique great people that can give them codices would be a must. Edo Japan could also be the "anti exploration" civ in Exploration, and should get several of their legacy points differently.
I mean most of Korea's uniques in past games have also been "modern" replacements. In Civ 6 Hwa'cha replaced the field cannon, though it was unlocked one age earlier.What I've done next at this point is dabble a bit with the other lines near Japan: Korea and China, and came to the conclusion that having three Koreas might be a bit too difficult.
Of course, Korean posters here have made wonderful work outlining possible scenarios for a Silla => Goryeo => Joseon line. GDR_Willter has made three theorycrafts on the subject, which I'll link below:
Silla
Goryeo
Joseon
Which is honestly, fantastic work. But GDR_Willter is Korean himself, and its easier to create such designs for your native culture, which you're much more familiar with.
However, I would like to propose an alternative idea. Personally, I don't like the idea of Modern Joseon. The Joseon dynasty reached its heights before Civ7's Modern Age, which would make the player play a Civilization in a state of decline, which I think goes against the philosophy of picking Civs. I would put Joseon in Exploration, the age that not only fits their gilded age, but also suits their prospective kit (which could include the Hwa'cha, Geobukseon and/or Seowon, depending on what the Silla get).
I could also easily see the Geobukseon being similar to an ironclad.
As for the Seowon, I don't see it any different than what the Qing has in the Shiguan. The only downside of a Seowon not appearing earlier is getting rid of the "religious context" of the district. Of course it never really mattered in past games so I guess that's not the biggest regret.
Regardless I do agree with you that Goryeo might not appear, but we will at least also have Joseon. I expect it to be Modern though and the gap will be in the middle with Ming, Mongolia, and Edo Japan being the bridge between the two Koreas, because of their influence.
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
Joseon is non-negotiable. Silla are a good starting point, but Joseon is peak Korea. It has to be in.
I also doubt we will get to see the Rus for the same reasons. Nepal felt like the devs were throwing a bone to those who want Tibet. One day Tibet will be in Civ, one day
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
I don't think the Rus' block any Civ, though? Both the Ukrainians and the Russians, as well as the Belarussians are direct descendants from the Rus. Nobody would be upset if they were added in, at least to my knowledge.
The only Civs that I feel are truly blacklisted are the ones that would actually spark huge amounts of backlash and negative publicity if they were included: Tibet (from China), USSR, Third Reich, North-Korea, the Confederate States, Israel/Palestine, etc. And even so, some of these might only be blacklisted in certain ages.
None of those will ever be added. But I don't think the Kievan Rus' are part of that list.
The only Civs that I feel are truly blacklisted are the ones that would actually spark huge amounts of backlash and negative publicity if they were included: Tibet (from China), USSR, Third Reich, North-Korea, the Confederate States, Israel/Palestine, etc. And even so, some of these might only be blacklisted in certain ages.
None of those will ever be added. But I don't think the Kievan Rus' are part of that list.
j51
Blue Star Cadet
I don’t think the Gupta are the best fit for the second antiquity Indian civ. They’re really a revitalization of the Maurya. Honestly the Maurya could be renamed Magadha to incorporate all of the classical dynasties centered on Bihar. I think Pala would be really cool in exploration though as a continuation. Like the Gupta they also patronized the Mahaviras (Nalanda could be pushed back an age for them.) and they would represent Bengal.
As for a good antiquity 2nd Indian civ I don’t know. The Indus would be cool if they could think of enough content for them and they’d theoretically work as a Dravidian precursor to Chola.
As for a good antiquity 2nd Indian civ I don’t know. The Indus would be cool if they could think of enough content for them and they’d theoretically work as a Dravidian precursor to Chola.
I'd like Korea to be represented in all three eras, as I believe that any civ that can be portrayed across all three should definitely be, for the sake of immersive gameplay. However, I agree that even if Joseon is included at some point, Goryeo might not appear. In any case, if Joseon ends up in the Exploration era, why not have the Modern Korean civ simply called “Korea,” giving it some elements of modern South Korea?
I believe a Sri Lankan civ would be a great addition to the Indian historical paths. I even think Sri Lanka could have a representative in each era, though I don’t really expect that to happen, so I'd be content with just one civ from there — and I think Anuradhapura would be an excellent choice.
The problem isn’t the Kievan Rus itself, but the fact it will (likely) only lead into Russia in-game. Russia is currently using their connection to the Rus as part of the justification for the war. It’s just rife for controversy. A similar problem also exists for a hypothetical Georgia > Russia path as well.
edit: upon further inspection I found no evidence of that ever happening in Humankind. tldr dont always say stuff in memory alone
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Sri Lanka’s connection with mainland Tamils could mean we see it as a precursor or successor to the Chola.
Ryansinbela
Emperor
Where did you heard the Humankind story
Anuradhapura interacted with the Chola and later fell to them, so it could work either as an Antiquity Age civ (a predecessor to the Chola) or as an Exploration Age civ — even though, historically, Anuradhapura existed during what the game considers the Exploration Age.
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