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Final Civ List.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - World 2009 Mod' started by DVS, Dec 9, 2008.

  1. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Warlord

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    Ok cool I didn't know that off hand. Make it minor then, or it's own civ. (It isn't so necessary to leave 2 empty civ slots as long as we are clear on which civs are the first to be removed if changes are required and i think we are. Unless it is alot easier for Matty from a modding perspective)

    Ps Please if possible no Mediterranean Union. The Mediterranean Union represents ALL countries in the mediterranean including African countries, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Palestine etc. The countries in the in game union are all Balkan, so this would be more accurately called 'Balkan Union'.
     
  2. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    You're right. I read this on wikipedia:

    "According to the 2009 Failed States Index, Ghana is ranked the 53rd least failed state in the world and the least failed state in Africa"

    But when I read it...I missed the "53rd least" and read it as 53rd ranked failed state.

    Don't worry, already been changed.

    But, thoughts on the other 2 states?
     
  3. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Warlord

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    Sorry, i don't understand? Edit: Sorry i guess you mean the 'empty slots'. Obviously my opinion has been made so i'll try and shut up and wait for anyone elses!
     
  4. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    First, I'd like to mention this is my first time visiting here with an account and therefore my first post. (I know it says I registered November '08, It's a long story, better to leave out)

    Anyways, I'd like to congratulate on finally splitting up the EU somewhat, Now I'll be able to play... as POLAND (Along with Canada)! Awesomesauce.

    However, I do think having Switzerland as it's own civ is rather pointless in my opinion (Apologies to all Swiss out there). It's so small, it's going to be one city civ (If that's wrong, then, please, do show a map). Also, as not a member of EU (and the diplomatics of IV), Germany, Italy, and France could look forward to and conquer it 5 turns Max with some nice tanks.

    I believe Switzerland should become a minor state, and I have some new countries (Also, since their is only 48 out of 50, you could do one or two of these and leave Switzerland alone).

    My first is to separate Vietnam from ASEAN. My reasoning's for this include that it has, for relative for it's size, an extremely organized military that closely resembles the Pepole's Republic (Even being called Vietnam Pepole's Army). Due to this, it has a more efficient military compared to it's neighbors, and due to the unstably of the area, could lead to back stabbing between the nations. and Vietnam could be a serious contender to rule a good chunk of Southeast Asia (Until China invades the area, that is.) Now, your probably asking yourself "Well, It's also a small country, probably 3 starting cities at the most", but think to yourself, "Can Switzerland /really/ hold off Germany, Italy, or France If a wars does happen?"

    Leaderhead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Tan_Dung (I think he should be easy to make. Just take the body of Teddy, turn his tie blue and his suit jacket navy blue, make a good head and some custom animations and your done)!

    UU and UB: I'll only look into these if you are st least looking to go use Vietnam (Same goes to all civs mentioned here)

    Before I tell my next idea, can I ask Mongolia's fate? I thought it was going to be playable, but now I can't find it anywhere in your list, not even minor or failed). Anyways, I bet you can tell that the Khan's homeland is my next idea, for that reason. This is almost purely for Genghis Kai, as a "We're sorry we're not using your map which you worked hard on anymore. Here's a small token of our appreciation for giving up your time", but I can think of some good reasons to make it playable (If already not). If it's a minor, it's going to get killed by China or Russia, and that could potentially cause a WW3 very early between the two Red-colored superpowers. If it is it's own country, this could forestall a war (As AI isn't as likely to attack a civ then a minor state), possibly changing what countries start it. It does have a good army, but it's not as strong as Genghis Khan's armies. Finally, I'd love to hear Mongol Internationale in the game, It's such a beautiful song :goodjob:. (Note: Both Khan's themes IS Mongol Internationale in the actual Civ 4, so if your cheap, you could just use the late version of it).

    Leaderhead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjaagiin_Bayar (Your going to have to google his image, it's not there).

    Finally, I also think Ghana should be a civ. I think the reasons why are already stated. Plus, Africa should have more than 5 civs that are actual countries and not allainces.

    Leaderhead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Atta_Mills

    That's all I got for now, and I understand if your too far to edit Swissie and that if you keep on using every one's ideas, nothing will get done.

    I'd also like to help mod, but my skill is literarly none, so I won't.
     
  5. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    Omega124: I'm not ignoring your post. So please don't feel the beginning of this post has anything to do with ignoring you. I simply have finished the map with all cities, etc., and wanted to post some statistics so we could have further thoughts/changes before I officially start to implement flags/leaderheads.

    Current Represented Civilizations with # of Cities:
    Spoiler :
    West:
    USA: 48
    Canada: 25
    Mexico: 11
    Brazil: 14
    Argentina: 6
    Peru: 5
    Chile: 5
    Colombia: 3

    Bolivarian Alliance: 10

    Europe (Includes overseas collectivities):
    UK: 14
    Spain: 5
    France: 12
    Germany: 6
    Poland: 4
    Italy: 6
    Sweden: 4
    Turkey: 6
    Ukraine: 5
    Switzerland: 1

    European Union: 32

    Balkan Union: 3

    North Africa:
    Libya: 2
    Egypt: 4
    Morocco: 4
    Algeria (+Tunisia): 5

    West African Alliance: 9

    Central African Alliance: 10

    East African Alliance: 12

    South Africa:
    South Africa: 4

    Middle East:
    Saudi Arabia: 5
    Israel: 2
    Palestine: 2
    Syria: 2
    Iran: 7

    Central Asia:
    Russia (+Belarus - 2 cities): 42
    CACO: 9
    Caucasus Union: 3

    South West Asia:
    Pakistan: 5
    India: 18

    SE Asia:
    China: 42
    Thailand: 3
    Indonesia: 13

    ASEAN:
    ASEAN: 11

    East Asia:
    North Korea: 2
    South Korea: 3
    Japan: 9

    Australia:
    Australia (+New Zealand 4 cities): 26 (overwhelming majority are 1 tile islands)

    Minor States: 43

    Failed States: 30 (21 failed cities in Africa)


    More or less, the game seems well balanced. The superpowers are the superpowers, the moderate nations are moderate, and the weaker are the weaker.

    We have 2 open civs, but after reviewing the map, also some possible suggestions.

    Possible points of conflict:

    #1 Thailand:
    Only 3 cities, with India & Minor States to the West, China to the NE, and Minor to the East, with ASEAN & Indonesia to the South. We can either A) leave it be, or B ) combine Thailand with ASEAN, which will increase ASEAN's size from 11 to 14 cities. This will then give ASEAN 2 'land bases' in Vietnam & Thailand - which can help repel a Chinese/Indian invasion. I think it will work either way, but it seems that making Thailand part of ASEAN will enable it to better defend itself and also give the possibility to attack the Minor Nations to spread ASEAN into Cambodia/Laos, which seems fairly realistic.

    #2 Switzerland:
    Thoughts in next post (edited)

    #3 Africa:
    EDIT: Africa is fairly broken, but could stand to be broken even more. If any of the African civs gets its act together...there are TONS of failed states (all failed correctly via 2009 Failed State Index) that can be conquered to bring a potential long-term powerful African civ. Adding 1 more fractured part would ensure this takes longer.


    As far as Australia & New Zealand. Australia has 22 cities, but many of them are 1 tile islands. New Zealand has 4 cities. But, I still think its best to combine these 2 civs because New Zealand is not a world player, but is also not "Minor" enough to risk a war with Australia.

    What do you guys suggest?

    We have 2 open civ slots. The 1-city Switzerland civ. 3 city Thailand civ. I suggest we remove at least 1 of those. That would take us to 47 civs, with the possibility of adding 3 more.

    Possibilities to add from those 3:
    #1 - Belarus (2 cities) as a playable civ with very good relations to Russia including defensive pact.
    #2 - Separate the EU somewhat, separate the Philippenes from ASEAN while adding Thailand
    #3 - Add civs from the list of Minor Nations, including: Mongolia (approx. 3-4 cities), New Zealand (4 cities), adding another African Alliance civ

    Other ideas?...
     
  6. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    After more intensive review of the map:

    Here are some more notes.

    Belarus, almost positively, needs to be added as a civ. Mostly to keep Russia off of Poland's eastern border. So, that takes care of 1 of the 2 open civs.

    Switzerland almost needs to stay, as well. Although only 1 city...it is located in a major defensive position in Europe. It separates the heart France and Germany, and is at a natural land block (pretty much) keeping Germany from Italy. Although only 1 city (and I doubt anyone ever plays using Switzerland), they almost need to be used. It should definitely NOT be a minor civ. If anything...although this is vastly stretching it...it could be put into the EU for military reasons...but that is definitely not correct. But, its either a standalone 1 city civ, or part of the EU. What do you all think?

    Thailand is not in entirely bad shape with only 3 cities. They have good, workable land, and some space to work with. Although, it would not be terribly bad to add them to ASEAN, still.

    Keeping every civ as was and including Belarus gives us 49 civs. Room for one more. Logical choices after looking at the map:

    Adding a 2 city civ in Bangladesh for balance reasons and separating India from China a bit, or adding a strategic world civ like Taiwan. And the final idea is to add another African Alliance civ to make sure Africa is truly fractured (see post above).

    That is about all that I see potential for, honestly. Any thoughts?
     
  7. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Add Switzerland to the EU, create Belarus, separate Ghana and make Africa even more fractured. Keep Bangladesh with Pakistan as well.
     
  8. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    Others thoughts on this?

    Also thought on (from my previous post):
    Just seems bad to add Switzerland to the EU. The fact is...it is too important of a city to just let be conquered by a mainland Europe civ. What are some ideas on this? Is it okay to add the Swiss to the EU?

    Thats being done, with no exceptions. It has to be done to separate Russia from Kaliningrad & keep Poland's borders a bit more secure.

    Others thoughts?

    I don't believe that combining Bangladesh & Pakistan is realistic. After all, the 2 countries' foreign policy towards each other has been said: "The Bangladesh-Pakistan relationship is yet to be at a level that may be called warm."

    Notes:
    Belarus added = 49 civs

    Possibilities:
    Switzerland to EU??? would drop it down to 48 civs, again
    Make Ghana (1 or 2 cities) independent = adds 1 civ to make it 49 or 50 depending on the Switzerland decision
    Make Bangladesh (2 cities) independent = same as above
    Add Mongolia (4 cities) = From Omega124
    Separate Vietnam (3 cities) from ASEAN = From Omega124
    Other ideas?...
     
  9. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    You do know both Cambodia and Laos are already in ASEAN, right?

    Anyways, I'm half and half for Switzerland in EU. I agree it's too small and a much larger civ should take it's place, but wouldn't it be offensive (To the Swiss) that we move Switzerland into a organization it's not in real life? I support to turn it into a Minor state, personally.

    Like I said before, if we are going to break up ASEAN more, it should be Vietnam, not Philippines. I don't feel like listing my reasons again, though.

    I think Belarus could work either way, but if it's going to make something like Canada become part of NATO (Seriously, What was that about?), then make it part of Russia. It's only two cities, it won't overpower Russia if you do merge them.

    Australia and New Zealand stay merged, Ghana Independent, DON'T ADD MORE ALLIANCES IN AFRICA. If anything, you should aim to bring them down to their knees.

    Since I know Swiss=Minor isn't going to happen, make it part of EU. My priorities for the new Civ is in order:

    Vietnam
    Mongolia
    Ghana
     
  10. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    With those ideas in place:

    It would look like:

    #1 - Switzerland to EU (strictly for balance/military reasons) = 47 civs
    #2 - Add Belarus = 48 civs
    #3 - Cambodia & Laos to ASEAN, making ASEAN: Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Cambodia & Laos
    #4 - Vietname out of ASEAN & a playable civ = 49 civs
    #5 - One new civ out of: Mongolia (currently Minor), Ghana (currently Minor), Bangladesh (currently Minor), *something we haven't considered*

    *Also, regarding Africa: The alliances have 9,10, and 12 cities each. Is that too many? Do we want to break them down by making more of them Minor states along with all the failed states?

    We can't leave Switzerland as a Minor State because they'll just get rolled over with no consequence to the aggresor nation. If they are going to get rolled on...there needs to be a consequence for it (IE, other nations declaring war). So, its either Switzerland stays as a 1-city, 3 plot civ with defensive pacts. Or it just becomes part of the EU.
     
  11. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    I like all of that. Maybe we should put to vote which one of the four (Or two of five, if you want to put up Vietnam to vote) should become major. After that, we Beta Test (I can help with Offline beta testing), find what's over/underpowered. Fix it, Beta test again, fix what's wrong, beta test again, and hopefully share with world.

    Also, Switzerland for EU, obviously to the rest of my post.

    EDIT: I think the West and maybe Centeral alliance is okay, but the East should be cut down to at maximum 10 cities.
     
  12. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    Civilizations & leaders represented:

    Spoiler :
    West: 8
    USA - Barack Obama
    Canada - Stephen Harper
    Mexico - Felipe Calderon
    Brazil - Lula da silva
    Argentina - Cristina Kirchner
    Peru - Alan Garica
    Chile - Michelle Bachelet
    Colombia - Alvaro Uribe

    Bolivarian Alliance: 1 - Hugo Chavez
    Bolivarian Alliance includes (only Hugo Chavez necessary):
    Venezuela
    Ecuador
    Bolivia
    Cuba
    Honduras
    Dominican Republic

    Europe: 11
    UK - Gordon Brown
    Spain - Jose Zapatero
    France - Nicolas Sarkozy
    Germany - Angela Merkel
    Poland - Donald Tusk
    Italy - Silvio Berlusconi
    Sweden - Fredrik Reinfeldt
    Turkey - Recep Erdogan
    Ukraine - Yulia Tymoshenko
    Switzerland - Hans Merz
    Belarus - ?? (haven't researched)

    European Union: 1 - Peter Balkenende
    European Union includes:
    Belgium
    Netherlands
    Ireland
    Portugal
    Greece
    Bulgaria
    Romania
    Czech Rep.
    Austria
    Hungary
    Finland
    Norway
    Iceland
    Denmark
    Estonia
    Latvia
    Lithuania

    Balkan Union: 1 - Stipe Mesic
    Balkan Union includes:
    Croatia
    Albania
    Serbia

    Caucasus Union: 1 - ??
    Caucasus Union includes:
    Georgia
    Azerbaijan

    N Africa: 4
    Libya - Muammar al-Gaddafi
    Egypt - Hosni Mubarak
    Morocco - Abbas el Fassi
    Algeria - Abdelaziz Bouteflika

    Africa East/Central/West Alliances: 3
    West: 1 - Umaru Yar Adua
    Sierra leone
    Liberia
    Cameroon
    Togo
    Nigeria
    Central: 1 - Jose dos Santos
    Mali
    Niger
    Zambia
    Angola
    Senegal
    East: 1 - Meles Zenawi
    Tanzania
    Mozambique
    Ethiopia
    namibia

    South Africa: 1
    South Africa - Jacob Zuma


    Middle East: 4
    Saudi Arabia - King Abdullah
    Syria - Bashar al Assad
    Israel - Benjamin Netanjahu
    Iran - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    Palestine - ??

    Central Asia: 2
    Russia - Vladimir Putin
    CACO: - Kassym Tokayev
    CACO includes:
    Tajikistan
    Kazakhstan
    Kyrgyzstan
    Turkmenistan
    Uzbekistan

    South West Asia: 2
    Pakistan - Asif Zardari
    India - Manmohan Singh

    South East Asia: 4
    China - Wen Jiabao
    Thailand - Bhumibol Adulyadej
    Indonesia - Susilo Yudhoyono
    ASEAN: 1 - S.R. Nathan
    Vietnam
    Philippines
    Malaysia
    Singapore

    East Asia: 3
    N Korea - Kim Yong Il
    S Korea - Lee Myung Bak
    Japan - Taro Aso

    Australia/Oceania: 1
    Australia - Kevin Rudd


    We still have not answered these questions:

    #1 - Do we leave Switzerland a 1 city, 3 plot playable civ? Or do we include in the EU? Already stated reasons why it will not be made a Minor Civ. Either EU, or playable civ?...

    #2 - We still have room for 2 more civs (if we leave Switerland as playable). If we put Switzerland in the EU, we have room for 3 more civs. What 2 (or 3 civs) should we add?

    Choices included but not limited to:
    Vietnam out of ASEAN and playable (3 cities)
    Taiwan playable (2 cities)
    Mongolia playable (4 cities - but somewhat useless tiles)
    Bangladesh playable (2 cities)
    Break up ASEAN fully - add Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippenes as playable civs
    Make Ghana a playable civ in Africa
    Other ideas not discussed.

    *Whatever we decide, we need to add 2 civs. And if we put Switzerland in EU for military balancing reasons (read above posts), then we need to add 3 more from the above list (or other ideas you all have that may be better).

    Concerning leaderheads: We need the spoiler'd list for sure as well as any changes made to that list with the civ-change choices above...
     
  13. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    I'd really rather have some more input on these decisions above if anyone has any thoughts at all...
     
  14. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Warlord

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    My votes:

    -Bangladesh
    -Taiwan
    -Ghana

    - Switz in EU

    (ps if switz is kept, have you thought of Switzerland in same civ as Iceland, Norway as 'EFTA'? = European Free Trade Agreement, kind of one rung below full membership, limits EU power also and makes Switzerland less pointless. I think this would be better than an independent Switzerland and an over inflated EU)
     
  15. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    Seems okay with me.

    WIth those suggestions it the additions list would be:

    1: Add EFTA: Swiss, Norway, Iceland (seems like a very weak European civ - didn't we take out NATO because of this?)

    2: Add Bangladesh

    And that would be it. If we just put Switzerland in EU the stretches to include Taiwan.

    Are myself and Adhesive the only ones with opinions regarding this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8412422&postcount=132 ?
     
  16. Joecoolyo

    Joecoolyo 99% Lightspeed

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    Hmm.. its not that I don't have an opinion, its just that I pretty much agree with Adhesive's and your propositions. EFTA and Bangladesh seem fine, though I think Taiwan should be independent (as in not part of the EU).
     
  17. civ editor11

    civ editor11 Ruler

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    Add the EFTA with switzerland in it
    Take Vietnam out of ASEAN
    and add ghana
    These are my opinions
     
  18. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    I vote:

    Swiss Eu
    Vietnam playable
    Mongolia playable
    Ghana Playable

    That'd be all, though I doubt this will happen, as everyone wants Bangladesh (Seriously, I never even heard of it until now, and SS is my /best/ class (got a perfect on last final), though I blame the in effectiveness of public school) .
     
  19. cheesemijit

    cheesemijit Prince

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    i vote EFTA, Ghana, Vietnam
     
  20. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Prince

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    If we add the EFTA...then we can only add 1 more civ with it.

    So, its either:

    EFTA + 1 additional civ, or
    Switzerland to EU + 2 additional civs.

    EFTA + 2 civs = 1 civ too many, haha.
     

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