Final Fixes Reborn

[TheIO]

I'm fairly certain that when I have all three pieces of the Triforce together on Pristin Pass, creating the Triforce shouldn't also turn the unit bearing all three into a Fort Commander.

 

[Calavente]

Just my 0.2 on UU by alignement.
taking into account the desire to get Druid as a shaman TierIV (in some way, you could make the "shaman-line" a series of UU for arcane for arcane-weak civs, instead of a completly different line).

For alignement; IMO Lawful is not centered on defense... (opposite of Berserk), but on support/following the Law : Paladins, Monks, Judges, Policemen....etc or even inquisitors... or a special type of knight (Templar...etc)
further, Neutral (G-E axis) is based on not opposing the Good Gods, and not Supporting them: it seems to be about the "power of the world : humans/nature/magic" : A Warlock, A shield wall, an Elemental, a Guardian Golem : something that enable to resist against both fanatic Mercurians and man-eating Infernals
Ethical Neutral, is also inbetween : a shield wall could also work here (renamed as "tercio" (mercenary band), or something more merchant based: the law of contract, but not the LAW : Mercenary Knight, or an arcane unit : Warlock: Arcane 2 unit, but has a few Tier3 spells from birth (all elementals ?) or


so here come 2 (incomplete) ideas

Evil-Neutral-Good : Eilodon (demon) - (Elemental or Golem/construct) - Angel or Monk (shaoline like instead of the middle ages Monk of Elohim : for example an upgrade of monks..; : Demonsbane ?? ) or Holy Inquisitor : Powerful Priest unit, get the religion spells like a High priests, + can cast inquisition + has a powerful spell/resistance against demons/undead.
Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful : berserk - ShieldWall - Paladin (Palies are known to be the most lawful of units ... even if they follow an evil god, they follow the scriptures to the max ! )


another theme
Eilodon / ShieldWall / Paladin
Bereserk / Warlock (tier IV Arcane with only a limited set of tierIII spells) / Roving Judge (mid-melee unit (or GG??) + some support spells that can increase xp, moral, loyalty, end of crazies, and can reduce maintenance /war weariness/crime....Etc) or Elite Guards: (use the War-Chariot + some support spells like the Royal guard but in more powerful)

 

[Alsark]

I'm fairly certain that when I have all three pieces of the Triforce together on Pristin Pass, creating the Triforce shouldn't also turn the unit bearing all three into a Fort Commander.

I was wondering the same.

Also, the Triforce power says it provides 2 gold star icons (the same icon used for your capital)... what does that mean?


Is the 4 GB patch something everybody should download, or is it more just something if you're experiencing issues?

 

[Bearmarshal]

Shouldn't Arctic Deer and Bison provide bonuses alongside a Hunting Lodge? Currently only Furs and Deer do.

Bison already does, either you missed it or you've got an old/corrupt installation. Arctic Deer is probably an oversight (and I suggest we rename it Reindeer to not look some kind of off-brand copy of its regular version which for some reason give you extra health even when you have a copy of the original).

Also, the game still crashed. Made it to turn 291, but game crashed going into Turn 292. PythonErr log is empty, and the last modified log is apparently xml.

The logs aren't written until the game closes, so the timestamps on the files don't mean anything.

Also, the Triforce power says it provides 2 gold star icons (the same icon used for your capital)... what does that mean?

Free XP, apparently.

 

[Nor'easter]

I'm fairly certain that when I have all three pieces of the Triforce together on Pristin Pass, creating the Triforce shouldn't also turn the unit bearing all three into a Fort Commander.

I had that happen to me in my current game and just assumed it was intended. It's not?


On a completely different subject, Events were brought up a few days ago. Sometimes it's just bad luck, getting the same Event repeated with some frequency. As @black_imperator knows (since he started it), there was a Rife Events Design Thread a few years back https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rife-events-design-thread.402441/, and even earlier the Common Events thread in the main FfH2 forum https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ideas-needed-common-events.262009/, so maybe there's some stuff to work with there.

 

[Bearmarshal]

I had that happen to me in my current game and just assumed it was intended. It's not?

It's intended in the sense that it's explicitly added to the code with littlle to no chance of being an error. That said, the question is whether we want to keep it. I'm for either creating a new Fort Commander or skipping this step entirely, since having a level 15+ Baron Duin Halfmorn turned into a generic Fort Commander with no warning is just plain not fun.

On a completely different subject, Events were brought up a few days ago. Sometimes it's just bad luck, getting the same Event repeated with some frequency. As @black_imperator knows (since he started it), there was a Rife Events Design Thread a few years back https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rife-events-design-thread.402441/, and even earlier the Common Events thread in the main FfH2 forum https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ideas-needed-common-events.262009/, so maybe there's some stuff to work with there.

BI showed it to me earlier when I was messing around with the event code. I'm planning on implementing a bunch, but I'll probably do a pretty heavy rewrite while doing so.

 

[Nor'easter]

It's intended in the sense that it's explicitly added to the code with littlle to no chance of being an error. That said, the question is whether we want to keep it. I'm for either creating a new Fort Commander or skipping this step entirely, since having a level 15+ Baron Duin Halfmorn turned into a generic Fort Commander with no warning is just plain not fun.

I had a high-level Hero unit unexpectedly become a Fort Commander, so decided to reload the previous autosave and send someone else instead, but I agree that having it happen the first time without warning wasn't fun. Maybe add a mouseover text to Triforce (?) saying that it will convert your unit to an immobile Fort Commander, so you're warned and don't accidentally lose a highly-promoted unit.

 

[Mknn]

@Nor'easter and @Bearmarshal , I am also digging in on events. Should we coordinate? I sent a few (5) to @black_imperator to make sure I'm on the right path, but was planning to

* Come up with a Google hosted doc/sheet with a standard format for listing proposed events.
* Developing a Google Doc with notes and documentation of the process and the related xml files.
* Somehow automating at least the initial production of the related xml.

 

[Bearmarshal]

I'll probably type mine up directly in XML, since that's where the result is going to end up anyway and I don't mind the overhead. That said, I'm currently engaged in cleaning up and diversifying the lair exploration results so that, for example, bandit camps won't be teeming with malevolent spirits and the barrows be full of living prisoners.

 

[Lugiafan123]

Hi there me again on the version I'm using. The version I'm using is the non-beta full installation version 14.11 a.k.a the version provided at the beginning of this thread.
Question: Does the full installation version 14.11 need to be patched to 14.4? Will assume no for now.

P.S I used the wrong name for landing party. The correct name is shore party, an unlisted austrin unique unit

 

[black_imperator]

What is supposed to give the Scion Necropolis? Because with 9 different health resources, I should get 10 productions bonus but it is definitively not there.

Rolled back to Turn 258. Still got a crash going into Turn 266.

Here's the resmgr that was produced:

Note the final line and the most repeated one: RESMGR: Failed loading file Art/Structures/Improvements/Penguins/pig.kfm. Error message: A file I/O error occurred.

I have a tile of penguins in my lands, on ground that's due to change climate back to temperate. Will check if that has something to do with it.

EDIT: It doesn't. The tile wasn't due to turn temperate until Turn 267, and deleting the penguins in WorldBuilder didn't prevent a crash. More importantly, I got the exact same resmgr file compared to otherwise. But that line clearly has something to do with it - I got that same line in my previous post.

Those are unlikely to cause the crash, though i'm interested in figuring out the penquin thing that seems to come up regularly.

Black Imperator: I have started a version 121 huge game and so far no issue in slow down.

Ok, next step will be 137 i think

While investigating the event code, I did find out that the player class has a dictionary of event counters for triggering delayed events (usually an outcome of a regular event). A similar dictionary could probably be used to insert a minimum delay between events.

little know fact, that thing has never worked even in Vanilla. This is why most event chains are partly broken or happen turn after turn. I never bothered to fix it as i implemented an flag system to be used instead that is generally more useful, in particular for quest events.

What is the logic that enable or not an unit to upgrade when in the countryside? It seems you need to be what - 3 tiles away max - from a city that can do such upgrade? I'm not too sure in fact because I have some archers that can upg to longbowmen standing on a citadel 15 tiles away from my nearest city.

The prereqs have a role to play, but i don't know the details, i'll look.

Re-activated BCoC after a rigamarole involving permissions. There's an ID conflict between that and Greatest People - UNIT_COMMANDER_BANNOR_CAPTAIN.

hmm, that should not cause issue. I'll take a look

I find funny (sorta...) that you can build a shipyard in cities that can't build ships. I have a few of these on the coast of some salted lakes. That would probably be nice to have the same conditions for both.

noted, i'll see about fixing it.

Shouldn't Arctic Deer and Bison provide bonuses alongside a Hunting Lodge? Currently only Furs and Deer do.

Looking at that class I see no reason why you should not be able to add a new variable and have an accessor for it. All you'd have to do is not define that one as a const in the header. Not unless there is something inside the other code that would reject that.

I don't know for sure that it is actively rejected, but in terms of code design, i'd rather keep the "info class =static data" idea.

I'm fairly certain that when I have all three pieces of the Triforce together on Pristin Pass, creating the Triforce shouldn't also turn the unit bearing all three into a Fort Commander.

I didn't know about that, i don't really think that's intended though.

Just my 0.2 on UU by alignement.
taking into account the desire to get Druid as a shaman TierIV (in some way, you could make the "shaman-line" a series of UU for arcane for arcane-weak civs, instead of a completly different line).

Something that was not elaborated in that dev diary is that the Shaman line won't be sub-arcane, it'll have its own specific capabilities and uses.

For alignement; IMO Lawful is not centered on defense... (opposite of Berserk), but on support/following the Law : Paladins, Monks, Judges, Policemen....etc or even inquisitors... or a special type of knight (Templar...etc)
further, Neutral (G-E axis) is based on not opposing the Good Gods, and not Supporting them: it seems to be about the "power of the world : humans/nature/magic" : A Warlock, A shield wall, an Elemental, a Guardian Golem : something that enable to resist against both fanatic Mercurians and man-eating Infernals
Ethical Neutral, is also inbetween : a shield wall could also work here (renamed as "tercio" (mercenary band), or something more merchant based: the law of contract, but not the LAW : Mercenary Knight, or an arcane unit : Warlock: Arcane 2 unit, but has a few Tier3 spells from birth (all elementals ?) or


so here come 2 (incomplete) ideas

Evil-Neutral-Good : Eilodon (demon) - (Elemental or Golem/construct) - Angel or Monk (shaoline like instead of the middle ages Monk of Elohim : for example an upgrade of monks..; : Demonsbane ?? ) or Holy Inquisitor : Powerful Priest unit, get the religion spells like a High priests, + can cast inquisition + has a powerful spell/resistance against demons/undead.
Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful : berserk - ShieldWall - Paladin (Palies are known to be the most lawful of units ... even if they follow an evil god, they follow the scriptures to the max ! )


another theme
Eilodon / ShieldWall / Paladin
Bereserk / Warlock (tier IV Arcane with only a limited set of tierIII spells) / Roving Judge (mid-melee unit (or GG??) + some support spells that can increase xp, moral, loyalty, end of crazies, and can reduce maintenance /war weariness/crime....Etc) or Elite Guards: (use the War-Chariot + some support spells like the Royal guard but in more powerful)

I'm not certain that Defense and supporting the law is incompatible, your roving judge idea, as a Polearm unit, would make both thematic sens as a Lawful unit and gameplay sense against the Berserk. Good points on the two neutral, i'll think about it.

Bison already does, either you missed it or you've got an old/corrupt installation. Arctic Deer is probably an oversight (and I suggest we rename it Reindeer to not look some kind of off-brand copy of its regular version which for some reason give you extra health even when you have a copy of the original).

Reindeer is a good idea.

The logs aren't written until the game closes, so the timestamps on the files don't mean anything.

Actually, most logs are updated as the game progresses.

On a completely different subject, Events were brought up a few days ago. Sometimes it's just bad luck, getting the same Event repeated with some frequency. As @black_imperator knows (since he started it), there was a Rife Events Design Thread a few years back https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rife-events-design-thread.402441/, and even earlier the Common Events thread in the main FfH2 forum https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ideas-needed-common-events.262009/, so maybe there's some stuff to work with there.

BI showed it to me earlier when I was messing around with the event code. I'm planning on implementing a bunch, but I'll probably do a pretty heavy rewrite while doing so.

@Nor'easter and @Bearmarshal , I am also digging in on events. Should we coordinate? I sent a few (5) to @black_imperator to make sure I'm on the right path, but was planning to

* Come up with a Google hosted doc/sheet with a standard format for listing proposed events.
* Developing a Google Doc with notes and documentation of the process and the related xml files.
* Somehow automating at least the initial production of the related xml.

I'll probably type mine up directly in XML, since that's where the result is going to end up anyway and I don't mind the overhead. That said, I'm currently engaged in cleaning up and diversifying the lair exploration results so that, for example, bandit camps won't be teeming with malevolent spirits and the barrows be full of living prisoners.

On the event stuff, Any help is very welcome. (Mknn, i'm sending you comments for yours later today, though the google sheet with the standard format is a great idea)

Hi there me again on the version I'm using. The version I'm using is the non-beta full installation version 14.11 a.k.a the version provided at the beginning of this thread.
Question: Does the full installation version 14.11 need to be patched to 14.4? Will assume no for now.

P.S I used the wrong name for landing party. The correct name is shore party, an unlisted austrin unique unit

You do not need to patch to 14.4, no.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Speaking of alignment units, maybe its just me but defense does not really strike me as a law thing. I mean, yes, you can make the connection that lawful = conservative = defending the law and tradition. But to me lawful should be more about command. So maybe the unit should start with guardsman and loyalty or be able to cast loyalty or some such.

 

[Nor'easter]

@Nor'easter and @Bearmarshal , I am also digging in on events. Should we coordinate? I sent a few (5) to @black_imperator to make sure I'm on the right path, but was planning to

* Come up with a Google hosted doc/sheet with a standard format for listing proposed events.
* Developing a Google Doc with notes and documentation of the process and the related xml files.
* Somehow automating at least the initial production of the related xml.

I'm not a programmer, so not sure if I can be helpful. I was just trying to flag the two threads that contained Event suggestions, that's all, so the team doesn't have to start from scratch in trying to come up with ideas. A lot of the suggested Events were added to the mod, of course, but towards the end Kael put the mod in "feature-lock," focusing on fixing bugs, so plenty of later-suggested Events were never considered.

 

[Calavente]

I'm not certain that Defense and supporting the law is incompatible, your roving judge idea, as a Polearm unit, would make both thematic sens as a Lawful unit and gameplay sense against the Berserk. Good points on the two neutral, i'll think about it.

Thanks for reading and answering.
I agree with you : they are not incompatible. However my point was that Defense shouldn't be the "focus" of "Lawful"... even if Over-attacker-Bereserk can be an epithom of Chaotic, A Pure defensive unit will not be the incarnation of Lawfull just by being a defensive unit.
However, if your lawfull UU is a defensive unit there is no issue. In fact my point was more about "how to design the unit/lore" and less about the actual role of the unit (it sprung mainly from having read: "as chaos is a full attacker, shouldn't lawfull be a full-defender?")

Speaking of alignment units, maybe its just me but defense does not really strike me as a law thing. I mean, yes, you can make the connection that lawful = conservative = defending the law and tradition. But to me lawful should be more about command. So maybe the unit should start with guardsman and loyalty or be able to cast loyalty or some such.

I agree, for me lawful is not about being conservative or following tradition /being a blind defender. It is "following the letter of the law" (but that might work well with : applying the "greater law" when there is conflict between 2 laws).
But policemen, judges are symboles of "Lawful" : so Lawful could apply to a defender. (someone who increase the authority of the Law/ of the King or increase the stability of the Empire).

What I noted after that post of mine was that Neutral, Ethic neutral, and even Lawfull could lead to some very exchangeable units (while some Neutral UU would never work as Lawfull, some might):
Shield wall can work for all 3 depending on lore : Force of Mankind versus demons/angel (Neutral) / Epithome of Mercenary formation (as the Tercio) (Neutral : Law of "true men/women" / Law of Trade/contract) / ShieldWall as the Queen of the Battlefield, needing the most cooperation and respect of obedience to military authority to be able to work: cooperation and respect of the military chain of command.

Special knights : Specialised magic-knights : to defend against demons/angels (templar like): Neutral / Mercenary knights (Law of Contract)(Ethic Neutral) / Royal Knights (specialised unit that protect the king/emperor and support the empire)(Lawful)

...etc

I hope you'll find the 4 units you want

 

[black_imperator]

Speaking of alignment units, maybe its just me but defense does not really strike me as a law thing. I mean, yes, you can make the connection that lawful = conservative = defending the law and tradition. But to me lawful should be more about command. So maybe the unit should start with guardsman and loyalty or be able to cast loyalty or some such.

Thanks for reading and answering.
I agree with you : they are not incompatible. However my point was that Defense shouldn't be the "focus" of "Lawful"... even if Over-attacker-Bereserk can be an epithom of Chaotic, A Pure defensive unit will not be the incarnation of Lawfull just by being a defensive unit.
However, if your lawfull UU is a defensive unit there is no issue. In fact my point was more about "how to design the unit/lore" and less about the actual role of the unit (it sprung mainly from having read: "as chaos is a full attacker, shouldn't lawfull be a full-defender?")

I agree, for me lawful is not about being conservative or following tradition /being a blind defender. It is "following the letter of the law" (but that might work well with : applying the "greater law" when there is conflict between 2 laws).
But policemen, judges are symboles of "Lawful" : so Lawful could apply to a defender. (someone who increase the authority of the Law/ of the King or increase the stability of the Empire).

What I noted after that post of mine was that Neutral, Ethic neutral, and even Lawfull could lead to some very exchangeable units (while some Neutral UU would never work as Lawfull, some might):
Shield wall can work for all 3 depending on lore : Force of Mankind versus demons/angel (Neutral) / Epithome of Mercenary formation (as the Tercio) (Neutral : Law of "true men/women" / Law of Trade/contract) / ShieldWall as the Queen of the Battlefield, needing the most cooperation and respect of obedience to military authority to be able to work: cooperation and respect of the military chain of command.

Special knights : Specialised magic-knights : to defend against demons/angels (templar like): Neutral / Mercenary knights (Law of Contract)(Ethic Neutral) / Royal Knights (specialised unit that protect the king/emperor and support the empire)(Lawful)

...etc

I hope you'll find the 4 units you want

Commander, with some aura bonuses could be a good possibility, yeah.

I'm not a programmer, so not sure if I can be helpful. I was just trying to flag the two threads that contained Event suggestions, that's all, so the team doesn't have to start from scratch in trying to come up with ideas. A lot of the suggested Events were added to the mod, of course, but towards the end Kael put the mod in "feature-lock," focusing on fixing bugs, so plenty of later-suggested Events were never considered.

You don't really need programming skills to fill xml files, just some organisational ones ^^ And, if/when we get started on the collaborative google sheet, that can also help to add suggestions there, in a proper format

 

[TheIO]

Captain Blackheart's diplo music needs the volume dialling down significantly. It hurts my ears.

Also, are the Hippus expected to get any unique units? Noticed that they're one of those few civs where it's literally just a hero at present.

Oh, and the Malakim get a unique Champion that appears to have the exact same stats as the normal Champion with absolutely nothing differentiating the two.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Commander, with some aura bonuses could be a good possibility, yeah.

Basically I think what we need to do is determine a set of themes for each of the alignment options. Like for example:

Good = Fighting evil, healing, support, aid...
Lawful = Order, law, command...
Chaos = ...

Once we have those we can figure out which unit fits which alignment best and how to make them lore as opposed to mechanical foils.

 

[Lugiafan123]

Hi there me again got some news regarding the bug with the austrin. Don't know if this is a separate bug or not but the game CTD:s whenever I move any unit between a ship and land. Now this only happens if I don't use the unload ship command.
Would appreciate if someone looked into this.

 

[Bearmarshal]

Actually, most logs are updated as the game progresses.

True, but holds on to the file pointers until the game closes, so they appear as empty to an outside observer and can't be used for online debugging.

Speaking of alignment units, maybe its just me but defense does not really strike me as a law thing. I mean, yes, you can make the connection that lawful = conservative = defending the law and tradition. But to me lawful should be more about command. So maybe the unit should start with guardsman and loyalty or be able to cast loyalty or some such.

To me, law is a lot about dicipline and valuing the collective above the individual. The first soldiers of law I think of fight in perfect formations and stand fast against an overwhelming onslaught, which strikes me as a really defensive thing. Now, valuing oneself's surival above all else is quite a neutral/ethical neutral value, so a defensive unit could be neutral as well.


In response to the general alignment units discussion: I appreciate the flavourfulness if the opposite alignment units aren't just mirrors of one another, it's important to make them feel somewhere near equally interesting. When I've been good nations I've lamented how I'm stuck with the quite boring paladin (sure it's strong and good against demons, but raw strength is fleeting and I way too seldom even have the Infernals called into my game to have much use for the smiting aspect) when I could have had the much more interesting and useful Druid, with the powerful Entangle spell and possibility to gain third level divine spellcasting if upgraded from a priest...

 

[Calavente]

I agree with Bearmarshal : Alignement UU shouldn't be "mirrors".
it could also be interesting to not have all of them be "melee" units.
(I further bring back the inherent issue with defensive units : difficulty to gain xp + less possibility of use (you decide where you attack ; you don't decide where/when you defend)

for defining alignement UU, I agree that knowing what each alignement is supposed to represent should help a lot.
However I propose that we wait for the "dev diary" on alignement...