Final Fixes Reborn

[black_imperator]

that's a bit more complicated than that. some civs don't use food and are immune to health, infernals and D'tesh, while some only don't use food ( Scions). As for the blight thing, it's a good point but i need to see how doable it is..

 

[Bearmarshal]

Doable should be easy, it's just a random event, unless it's something weird is going on behind the scenes. EVENTTRIGGER_ARMAGEDDON_BLIGHT and doArmageddonBlight look like they encapsulate the full logic...

 

[Granix]

I'll take a look, though both are probably gonna get cut and replace by a proper mechanic
There was a streamlining early on in bts FFH, to get to the three spells per mana idea, to make it clearer and more balanced. I don't intend to fully go back on this but there are still some stuff i'd like to do to improve it.

I'd be very interested in that. Right now it feels like Magic is kind of boring, with most of the top level spells being too similar (summon a dude who probably has affinity). My biggest request would be being able to raise and lower terrain again. I love terraforming. I'd try doing it myself, but I seem to fail anytime I try to have a module call python code.

 

[black_imperator]

try to mimic an existing module with python. From what i remember, the spell interface python file must be named spellModuleName.py where ModuleName is the folder name of the module. That's probably part of the issues you're having.

 

[Airborne7]

I remembered 2 other questions, what are the keepers of noggormotha and the silver circle?

 

[Bearmarshal]

I'd be very interested in that. Right now it feels like Magic is kind of boring, with most of the top level spells being too similar (summon a dude who probably has affinity). My biggest request would be being able to raise and lower terrain again. I love terraforming.

Pretty much any terraforming can already be done: Sun I and Water I allows you to change terrain type to anything but tundra and colder (which are pretty ingrained in the Cult of the White Hand religion), and Stonewardens and Runekeepers can raise and lower land terrain. The only terrain which can't be terraformed is water tiles, which I guess is a pretty major thing, but nevertheless.

I agree about the tier 3 spells, though.

I remembered 2 other questions, what are the keepers of noggormotha and the silver circle?

I don't know about the Noggormotha, from their text entries it seems to be a special super unit granted to each civ, which are immortal to all other units and absorb the loser's strenght when they kill one another. The Silver Circle is an almost-guild based around precious metals and reagents. It doesn't use the Corporation mechanic, though, and has some special features, but it's still pretty much a guild.

 

[Calavente]

So I remember when I used to play FFH2 without BtS, the spells were a bit more interesting. You could select spells by tile, there was a separation of summoning/sorcery, and you even had the ability to terraform land/sea (I particularly loved this part). Did BtS add limitations to the game or something? Just not sure why it seems we are able to do less now than we could before.

Kael changed this.
before, each "army corp" was split into 2 branches for tier III / Tier IV : (and it increased in TierIV for some)
melee had champion -> Berserk/Immortal (this remains) and Pike -> Phalanx / ShieldWall (phalanx was kept)

recon had ranger -> Beastmaster and Assassin -> Shadow (all line kept)

Ranged had : Longbow-> Marksman / Flurry and Crossbow -> Heavy Crossbow (crossbow disappeared, heavy crossbow became crossbow and Flurry became Ljos Marksman UU)

Mounted had horsearcher -> Knight and chariot -> War Chariot (we lost War Chariots)

Disciples had Priest -> High-Priest/ Inquisitor (We lost Inquisitors)

Arcane had mage-> archmage/lich and summoner Great Summoner: this one was the greatest issue. even with "only" 16 spell spheres (out of 21 total) providing mana nodes, it meant that you needed... 64 tierII+tierIII spells ... so there was a lot of redundancy and it was difficult to be original, especially for summoner spells.

Siege had trebuchet and Cannon->siege cannon? ( we lost both trebuchet and siege cannon, which both became UU for Khazad IIRC)

(I might have forgotten or mixed up some).
However Kael decided to streamline the units to both better define each role of each unit, to simplify balancing them, and to facilitate the creation of some UU...etc (and in so doing he removed a few end-game techs necessary for those tier III - Tier IV units).

I remember that at the time I wept a bit... but in the end it works well.

Maybe on the magic side a bit is lacking... but now with 21 spheres, (see magistermodmod, or AoE), having 42 tierII+tier III might give enough leeway to have all effects wanted... but maybe there is really missing a few spells). (especially for AoE due to the "master of X and Y" and Master of "branch", and Master of BranchA and BranchB adding even more spells).

Personnaly I wouldn't be against adding some of those units / spells back... but that would be a lot of work.

 

[Joey Diamond]

Basically Noggormotha module is the Exodia + Highlander of Fall from Heaven. You and all other civs get to use a new monk unit given for free a few turns at the start to do some early dungeoneering. These monks has Explorer promotion and they also respawn at capital indefinitely unless killed by their fellow monks. Each also has 1 shard of a demon within. Whenever a monk engage an enemy stack that has a unit with any amount of demon shard, it will always target that unit first. Should it wins, it will get to keep the shard. Get 20 of these shards promotion i think. and you'll be able use unleash Noggormotha ability and gain a powerful Korean anime demoness. Also half way through the tech, you'll be able to build good or evil temple to upgrade your monk from clubman level to champion level with some ability variation depending on your alignment.

Yeah and like Bearmarshal said. Silver Circle is a guild without guild mechanic. You build a unit to build an economy boosting building in other city or turn copper tile into gold tile and vice versa.

 

[Granix]

Pretty much any terraforming can already be done: Sun I and Water I allows you to change terrain type to anything but tundra and colder (which are pretty ingrained in the Cult of the White Hand religion), and Stonewardens and Runekeepers can raise and lower land terrain. The only terrain which can't be terraformed is water tiles, which I guess is a pretty major thing, but nevertheless.

I agree about the tier 3 spells, though.
.

Hmm, I didn't know they could work mountains into hills, that isn't mentioned in the civilopedia. Would a Druid who managed to learn earth magic somehow also be able to do so? Though yes, I still would want to be able to work the water as well.

 

[Granix]

try to mimic an existing module with python. From what i remember, the spell interface python file must be named spellModuleName.py where ModuleName is the folder name of the module. That's probably part of the issues you're having.

That's actually exactly what I tried already. I copied the Hamstalfar module, removed everything besides the starting stuff, added the spell I wanted, and renamed it to spell<FolderName>.py. The button for my new spell would pop up, if I pressed it, it would say I cast it, but then nothing actually happened. No matter how I changed the python, nothing would change at all. It was like it was never even reading it to begin with.

 

[black_imperator]

That's actually exactly what I tried already. I copied the Hamstalfar module, removed everything besides the starting stuff, added the spell I wanted, and renamed it to spell<FolderName>.py. The button for my new spell would pop up, if I pressed it, it would say I cast it, but then nothing actually happened. No matter how I changed the python, nothing would change at all. It was like it was never even reading it to begin with.

show me the xml and the python so that i can take a look. (also be sure to activate python exceptions as it might just be that there's an undetected crash, you'll find the option in Civ4config.ini in the bts folder

 

[Fierbug]

Hi! Can you help me with this CTD? Latest SVN version.

 

[Bearmarshal]

Personnaly I wouldn't be against adding some of those units / spells back... but that would be a lot of work.

Despite never really having had any problems with enemy mounted units (except possibly Baron Duin Halfmorn's infinite Chariots in my current game, but that's for an entirely different reason), I do feel a bit empty without a spearman line...

Hmm, I didn't know they could work mountains into hills, that isn't mentioned in the civilopedia. Would a Druid who managed to learn earth magic somehow also be able to do so? Though yes, I still would want to be able to work the water as well.

Yeah, it's not documented, I just decided to send a Stonewarden up a peak and try it out. Worked like a charm. I think Black Imperator changed the spells around, so you may need a Runekeeper to lower peaks now, though...

And no, the Earth sphere doesn't manipulate terrain, but upgrading a Druid from a Stonewarden would make you able to do so. As for getting a Stonewarden without following Runes of Kilmorph, try capturing one via Command or turning one into a werewolf.

________________________________

Returning to my issues with Duin's Chariots, I think letting all units ignore terrain movement cost is way too powerful for the Lycanthropic feat, because it makes it near impossible to use home field advantage to dodge fast units such as Chariots. And the AI knows this, so Baron Duin Halfmorn is spamming my game with Chariots and love giving them Mobility promotions. Killing them isn't too much of a challenge, but they make it impossible to traverse my land, because despite being thick with hills, forests and deserts, any unit anywhere needs a heavy escort to discourage a sudden three-Chariot gank.

 

[black_imperator]

Hi! Can you help me with this CTD? Latest SVN version.

what modules were you using ? i need to know to be able to open the save file. Also if the issue comes from the save file itself, do you have an earlier save that i can check?

Yeah, it's not documented, I just decided to send a Stonewarden up a peak and try it out. Worked like a charm. I think Black Imperator changed the spells around, so you may need a Runekeeper to lower peaks now, though...

haven't changed it yet, it's on my todo list.

Returning to my issues with Duin's Chariots, I think letting all units ignore terrain movement cost is way too powerful for the Lycanthropic feat, because it makes it near impossible to use home field advantage to dodge fast units such as Chariots. And the AI knows this, so Baron Duin Halfmorn is spamming my game with Chariots and love giving them Mobility promotions. Killing them isn't too much of a challenge, but they make it impossible to traverse my land, because despite being thick with hills, forests and deserts, any unit anywhere needs a heavy escort to discourage a sudden three-Chariot gank.

i really like the fact that the AI picked up on this ^^

 

[Nor'easter]

I've never played with the Keepers of Noggormotha module active, but I found the following description here: Derf's Ashes Modules:

"The Keepers of Noggormotha are a group of units who each hold a piece of the demon Noggormotha within them, who wants to be reunited to reform into a powerful entity. As each Keeper slays another Keeper, they acquire the piece resident in their slain brother and grow more powerful."


One downside of the Silver Circle was that to build it you had to research a tech, Alchemy, that didn't do anything else (except for the Mechanos). I suggested a while back that it be changed from a World Wonder to either a Guild or a National Wonder, but don't particularly miss not having it in the game.


@Calavente, we didn't lose War Chariots, we still have them, but I think most of the rest of what you say about the streamlining changes Kael made is correct.

I remember some of his justifications for the changes. My recollection is that he wanted the Archery line to be defensive units, so didn't want the highest-level Archery unit, the Flurry, which was a powerful offensive unit. Similarly, he didn't think it made sense for one of the top-tier Melee units, the Shield Wall, to be a defensive unit, since he wanted the Melee line to be offensive.

For my part, I was disappointed to see Melee units like Macemen and the Spearman-Pikeman line disappear and be replaced by the Champion. I seem to remember Kael reasoning that players could specialize their units as anti-Melee or anti-Mounted with the various promotions available, but I think some flavor was lost there.

 

[Granix]

show me the xml and the python so that i can take a look. (also be sure to activate python exceptions as it might just be that there's an undetected crash, you'll find the option in Civ4config.ini in the bts folder

Hmm, I'm not sure how to send files via the forum. As for the python exceptions, I still have all the ones I mentioned a few pages back. You didn't seem to have any answer for what I should do about them though.

 

[Nor'easter]

Also, I agree with what a couple of others said about the Bannor Chain of Command, it's a pretty significant aspect of how the civ operates, with a unique line of promotions: Corporal, Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Captain, and General. It was created by Xienwolf for Fall Further; here's the original thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/module-bannor-chain-of-command.328253/

Having said that, and although I think the Chain of Command represents a MAJOR improvement to the Bannor, there was some interesting discussion about the Bannor in the thread for Rystic's FfH TweakMod which might be worth looking at, discussion beginning here (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ffh-tweakmod.320586/page-21) and continuing for a few pages. Rystic's basic point was that he thought Crusade was the Bannor problem. I'll just quote him directly:

"I did a little soul searching today and came to the conclusion that the Bannor are in a situation similar to the Amurites. That is, I can add all the tid-bits and pieces I want, but at the end of the day, it's not going to matter unless I address the elephant in the room. For the Amurites, it was sucky Adepts. For the Bannor, it's Crusade.

What is it about Crusade that's lackluster? For one, it doesn't feel like a religious crusade. Really, besides the happiness bonus from the civic, religion and Crusade are entirely disjointed. Demagogs aren't even born with the state religion. The civic may as well be called 'Super War'."​

Anyway, @black_imperator , if you decide you want to do more with the Bannor at some point, that discussion might be worth looking at.

 

[Fierbug]

what modules were you using ? i need to know to be able to open the save file. Also if the issue comes from the save file itself, do you have an earlier save that i can check?

Default modules. Nothing checked/unchecked by me. All other saves far behind. Load save, press end turn, CTD happens.

 

[Calavente]

@Calavente, we didn't lose War Chariots, we still have them, but I think most of the rest of what you say about the streamlining changes Kael made is correct.

I remember some of his justifications for the changes. My recollection is that he wanted the Archery line to be defensive units, so didn't want the highest-level Archery unit, the Flurry, which was a powerful offensive unit. Similarly, he didn't think it made sense for one of the top-tier Melee units, the Shield Wall, to be a defensive unit, since he wanted the Melee line to be offensive.

For my part, I was disappointed to see Melee units like Macemen and the Spearman-Pikeman line disappear and be replaced by the Champion. I seem to remember Kael reasoning that players could specialize their units as anti-Melee or anti-Mounted with the various promotions available, but I think some flavor was lost there.

I knew I missed some changes (honestly I don't remember playing recently with war chariots but knight yes....) anyway, nice that you caught that.

You know, re-shield wall and Flurry....
for me they were one of the places where the value of FFH shined the most: you don't need to play in each army line... if you specialise deep enough, you'll be able to reach any goal :

if you focus melee and never archer (defense).... in late game you'll still obtain a melee formation that gives big defense : less than TierIV defense archer, but more than tierIII defense archer.
In the same way, if you develop by turtling with archers all game, and manage to survive until tierIV, you'll be able to get an archer worth more in Attack than any tier III unit (even if less than Tier IV melee or Mounted or Recon).

there was meaning here, but eh... the designer is God

 

[black_imperator]

Hmm, I'm not sure how to send files via the forum. As for the python exceptions, I still have all the ones I mentioned a few pages back. You didn't seem to have any answer for what I should do about them though.

just upload them to a filesharing site like mediafire and post the link here.

Also, I agree with what a couple of others said about the Bannor Chain of Command, it's a pretty significant aspect of how the civ operates, with a unique line of promotions: Corporal, Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Captain, and General. It was created by Xienwolf for Fall Further; here's the original thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/module-bannor-chain-of-command.328253/

Having said that, and although I think the Chain of Command represents a MAJOR improvement to the Bannor, there was some interesting discussion about the Bannor in the thread for Rystic's FfH TweakMod which might be worth looking at, discussion beginning here (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ffh-tweakmod.320586/page-21) and continuing for a few pages. Rystic's basic point was that he thought Crusade was the Bannor problem. I'll just quote him directly:


"I did a little soul searching today and came to the conclusion that the Bannor are in a situation similar to the Amurites. That is, I can add all the tid-bits and pieces I want, but at the end of the day, it's not going to matter unless I address the elephant in the room. For the Amurites, it was sucky Adepts. For the Bannor, it's Crusade.

What is it about Crusade that's lackluster? For one, it doesn't feel like a religious crusade. Really, besides the happiness bonus from the civic, religion and Crusade are entirely disjointed. Demagogs aren't even born with the state religion. The civic may as well be called 'Super War'."


Anyway, @black_imperator , if you decide you want to do more with the Bannor at some point, that discussion might be worth looking at.

it's on my list of bannor related thread ^^ Though don't expect too much on the bannor soon. They have enough to feel good at the moment, compared to other civs.

Default modules. Nothing checked/unchecked by me. All other saves far behind. Load save, press end turn, CTD happens.

found the error, the fix should be commited.


Also for the people who had weirdness with emergent traits, please tell me if it's still happening.


Finally, about the unit discussion, i can only encourage you to vote for the Units theme for the next dev diary if you want to know more about my plans ^^
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14P90zYvnsodp-PLfRDmAehvX--nuhGV6yhKZMUxy9NI/edit#

Current state of the vote is 2 for Religions and 1 for Alignment. i'm gonna let it run another day or two.