Final Tuning: The "F" stuff

[tu_79]

Maybe give Churches the old barbie missionary conversion? Or more yields, or a faith cost reduction. Or something diplomacy related, no building/follower belief benefits it. Maybe +5 influence to diplomatic units born in the city and a burst of Faith whenever you diplomat someone?

Real problem with churches was 3 spreads per missionary. Secondary problem was that you only needed 1 church to make the bonus work. I say secondary because I ended up building churches everywhere, for the added pressure, but I might see how a strategy for spreading with missionaries is hurt by the extra pressure.

I am not really sure churches are underperforming. Has anyone tried to use them for the spreading strategy (those enhancer beliefs that give yields when spreading)?

 

[Mad Madigan]

Given that there are no other religious buildings that directly benefit Diplomatic victories (Ex: Orders support Domination, Stupas & Pagodas support Cultural, etc.) it would make sense if Churches had some benefit for diplomacy.

I don't think giving more bonuses to units produced in the city with the Church is such a good idea, as the building needs a reason to be built in every/most cities. How easy would it be to make Churches act like Chanceries/Wire Services where they give increasing yields based on the number of City States following your religion? Maybe something like:

+2 and +1 & for every 2 City States following your majority religion

OR

+2 and +1 & for every 4 foreign cities following your religion

 

[Gazebo]

Given that there are no other religious buildings that directly benefit Diplomatic victories (Ex: Orders support Domination, Stupas & Pagodas support Cultural, etc.) it would make sense if Churches had some benefit for diplomacy.

I don't think giving more bonuses to units produced in the city with the Church is such a good idea, as the building needs a reason to be built in every/most cities. How easy would it be to make Churches act like Chanceries/Wire Services where they give increasing yields based on the number of City States following your religion? Maybe something like:

+2 and +1 & for every 2 City States following your majority religion

OR

+2 and +1 & for every 4 foreign cities following your religion

Very easy. But potentially quite strong!

G

 

[tu_79]

Given that there are no other religious buildings that directly benefit Diplomatic victories (Ex: Orders support Domination, Stupas & Pagodas support Cultural, etc.) it would make sense if Churches had some benefit for diplomacy.

I don't think giving more bonuses to units produced in the city with the Church is such a good idea, as the building needs a reason to be built in every/most cities. How easy would it be to make Churches act like Chanceries/Wire Services where they give increasing yields based on the number of City States following your religion? Maybe something like:

+2 and +1 & for every 2 City States following your majority religion

OR

+2 and +1 & for every 4 foreign cities following your religion

What if it doubles the pressure for trade routes from this city and adds +3 gold to any trade route to or from this city?

 

[Mad Madigan]

@Gazebo The numbers were just an example, but what do you think of the idea of Church yields scaling off of the number of City States or Foreign Cities following ones' majority religion? It makes the Church unique in that its yield power is related to how well-spread your religion is (similar to the Tithes and Sainthood).

Alternatively, what if Churches gave their city an instant yield boost when a Missionary is used to spread their religion to a city state (or any foreign city), but at the cost of much lower base yields compared to other Follower Buildings? The yields would have to be small to not combo too strongly with Apostolic Tradition, Way of the Pilgrim, and Council of Elders (and because it would trigger in every city a Church was currently built in). As for what yields, and/or seems like the obvious choices, but maybe it could be something else.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo The numbers were just an example, but what do you think of the idea of Church yields scaling off of the number of City States or Foreign Cities following ones' majority religion? It makes the Church unique in that its yield power is related to how well-spread your religion is (similar to the Tithes and Sainthood).

Alternatively, what if Churches gave their city an instant yield boost when a Missionary is used to spread their religion to a city state (or any foreign city), but at the cost of much lower base yields compared to other Follower Buildings? The yields would have to be small to not combo too strongly with Apostolic Tradition, Way of the Pilgrim, and Council of Elders (and because it would trigger in every city a Church was currently built in). As for what yields, and/or seems like the obvious choices, but maybe it could be something else.

That’s a lot of new code. I’m talking about using the same code for the chancery etc. directly on the church.

 

[pandasnail]

Maybe give Churches the old barbie missionary conversion?

When this was on Zealotry, it was the most OP thing in the history of the mod. As fun as it was, Gazebo was right to kill it completely.

I do like the idea for something diplomatic for churches, whatever the specifics end up being.

 

[Mad Madigan]

@Gazebo So if the Chancery code was used would the yields have to be based on the # of City State Allies/Friends or could it be modified to count # of City States following your majority religion?

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo So if the Chancery code was used would the yields have to be based on the # of City State Allies/Friends or could it be modified to count # of City States following your majority religion?

The former.

 

[pineappledan]

I think Gold/Faith makes the most sense.
Perhaps this?:

Church
3 Faith
20% conversion resistance
50% religious pressure
1 for every CS friend, and +2 for every CS Ally

The friend/ally bonuses are mutually exclusive, if I recall, correct?

 

[Mad Madigan]

That is going to end up being way too many yields for any player seriously trying for a Diplo victory. On a Standard sized map with 8 Civs and 16 City States it's not uncommon to be Allied with about half of the CSs on the map and Friendly with several others. That's 19 PER CHURCH!''

I'd suggest something more like:

Church
1
20% conversion resistance
50% religious pressure
1 for every CS Friend, and 1 for every CS Ally

Most of the Follower Buildings provide 5 yields and a secondary effect. So with the above you get the bonus religious pressure as your secondary effect and equivalent yields to the other buildings with 2 Allies and 2 Friends (pretty easy for any player trying for CS control) with potential for excellent yields if you go all out on the CS alliances.

 

[chicorbeef]

That is going to end up being way too many yields for any player seriously trying for a Diplo victory. On a Standard sized map with 8 Civs and 16 City States it's not uncommon to be Allied with about half of the CSs on the map and Friendly with several others. That's 19 PER CHURCH!''

I'd suggest something more like:

Church
1
20% conversion resistance
50% religious pressure
1 for every CS Friend, and 1 for every CS Ally

Why not leave the 4 faith and the conversion boost, it'd have synergy with One World, One Religion and make the Church a versatile building? This seems a bit weak.

 

[Rekk]

That is going to end up being way too many yields for any player seriously trying for a Diplo victory. On a Standard sized map with 8 Civs and 16 City States it's not uncommon to be Allied with about half of the CSs on the map and Friendly with several others. That's 19 PER CHURCH!''

I'd suggest something more like:

Church
1
20% conversion resistance
50% religious pressure
1 for every CS Friend, and 1 for every CS Ally

Most of the Follower Buildings provide 5 yields and a secondary effect. So with the above you get the bonus religious pressure as your secondary effect and equivalent yields to the other buildings with 2 Allies and 2 Friends (pretty easy for any player trying for CS control) with potential for excellent yields if you go all out on the CS alliances.

It does need to compete with Veneration, which runs about 10 faith per city in a non-growth focused civ without any investment. Why was the 50% religious pressure removed last time?

 

[Deadstarre]

It does need to compete with Veneration, which runs about 10 faith per city in a non-growth focused civ without any investment. Why was the 50% religious pressure removed last time?

churches were op at the time.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

churches were op at the time.

I don't know if they'd still be OP in their old state now. The AI is efficient with Inquisitors, even non-founders will make them to ensure I cannot spread mine into their lands if they dislike me. Sometimes even if they like me.

 

[Deadstarre]

The AI is efficient with Inquisitors, even non-founders will make them to ensure I cannot spread mine into their lands if they dislike me. Sometimes even if they like me.

I question this logic right now actually. my last game Me and Ethiopia both tried converting non-founder Babylon. I got there first, converted all their cities and babylon happily adopted my religion. Ethiopia had been at war with babylon on and off all game long, during a peace break ethiopia sent in a ton of missionaries and converted babylon to his religion. they resumed war briefly after

Now i send my missionaries back to Babylon to return my religion (the first religion he had and was happy with) and lo and behold, now he is buying ethiopian inquisitors to stop me, and fighting me tooth and nail to stop me from spreading to him again

I dont know what their logic on this is, but it doesnt seem to have anything to do with who they like. me and babylon were on good terms all game long, they even requested friendship at one point

 

[Gazebo]

I question this logic right now actually. my last game Me and Ethiopia both tried converting non-founder Babylon. I got there first, converted all their cities and babylon happily adopted my religion. Ethiopia had been at war with babylon on and off all game long, during a peace break ethiopia sent in a ton of missionaries and converted babylon to his religion. they resumed war briefly after

Now i send my missionaries back to Babylon to return my religion (the first religion he had and was happy with) and lo and behold, now he is buying ethiopian inquisitors to stop me, and fighting me tooth and nail to stop me from spreading to him again

I dont know what their logic on this is, but it doesnt seem to have anything to do with who they like. me and babylon were on good terms all game long, they even requested friendship at one point

Probably didn't have the faith to buy inquisitors the first time around, but did the second (and a stable religion is more valuable to the AI than sharing a religion with a friend).

G

 

[ElliotS]

Probably didn't have the faith to buy inquisitors the first time around, but did the second (and a stable religion is more valuable to the AI than sharing a religion with a friend).

G

This is my biggest problem with AI religion logic. Even AI with 4 cities that can definitely have an inquisitor in each city to prevent conversion don't. (Despite that I do that all the time on small empire games.)

AI also should have some logic dedicated to trying to get the religion that's best for them. Right now one of my strategies when spreading it to pick beliefs that aren't very useful to the AIs because they're too dumb to take the religion in one city with diligence and thrift and replace mine with Veneration and Mandirs.

Ideally the AI should settle for any religion, but try to spread religions that they get if they're better than their current one based on the following parameters (in no particular order):

• Relationship with Religion Owner
• Fear of Religion Owner's WC power (More early on where the votes matter a ton)
• Fear of Religion Owner's Tourism (If he went fealty moreso)
  
• Benefits of Religion to them
• Ease/Difficulty of conversion (4 cities to convert is more likely to jump ship than 20 cities needed to convert)
• If buildings have already been built. (If a religion had 2 buildings and I built them, then I want a new religion to double up on beliefs.)

 

[Gazebo]

This is my biggest problem with AI religion logic. Even AI with 4 cities that can definitely have an inquisitor in each city to prevent conversion don't. (Despite that I do that all the time on small empire games.)

AI also should have some logic dedicated to trying to get the religion that's best for them. Right now one of my strategies when spreading it to pick beliefs that aren't very useful to the AIs because they're too dumb to take the religion in one city with diligence and thrift and replace mine with Veneration and Mandirs.

Ideally the AI should settle for any religion, but try to spread religions that they get if they're better than their current one based on the following parameters (in no particular order):

• Relationship with Religion Owner
• Fear of Religion Owner's WC power (More early on where the votes matter a ton)
• Fear of Religion Owner's Tourism (If he went fealty moreso)
  
• Benefits of Religion to them
• Ease/Difficulty of conversion (4 cities to convert is more likely to jump ship than 20 cities needed to convert)
• If buildings have already been built. (If a religion had 2 buildings and I built them, then I want a new religion to double up on beliefs.)

I agree, but it’s just really complex to give them dynamic valuation, as it’s more than just an issue of religion value, it’s also an issue of opportunity cost and outside pressure (religious persistence viability). It’s one of those ‘massive projects’ that doesn’t have amazing turnaround in terms of performance.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I agree with ElliotS, would love to see more "insight" from the AI in terms of which religion to try to have, but I also understand that it'd take a lot of work, perhaps too much for the good it'd do.