Final Verdict: We want our stack back and other great cIV features!

[Moss]

Moderator Action: Please stop with the insults, if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't post anything.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[TheArchduke]

Although I have some issues with CIV V, like the AI and balance every single point on this list is a change I am happy about. Suprisingly 43% think the same.

 

[aziantuntija]

Looks like the communism is overthrown . Because now we got this: "Nothing, i like Civ5 how it is ." -option.

EDIT: Look at that! By adding that one small option in to your poll of many choices you almost instantly got huge amounts of voters and that option became instantly the majority .

only if you cant count

That is so funny knugen that it is almost sad.

Do you even know what does word 'majority' mean?

 

[kuukkeli]

That is so funny knugen that it is almost sad.

Do you even know what does word 'majority' mean?

So you honestly believe that 43% is more than 57% And I've always thought we have pretty good education system here in Finland.

 

[GustavBjorklund]

43% is not more than 57%, but 43% is more than what any other one option got. If this was a parliamentary election, the Keep Civ5 The Way It Is party would form get to form a government because it got the most votes. They would probably form a coalition with Unsure What Is Wrong With Civ5 party to form a majority government with 52% of the popular vote.

 

[kuukkeli]

43% is not more than 57%, but 43% is more than what any other one option got. If this was a parliamentary election, the Keep Civ5 The Way It Is party would form get to form a government because it got the most votes. They would probably form a coalition with Unsure What Is Wrong With Civ5 party to form a majority government with 52% of the popular vote.

Read my explanation of single choice poll from the previous page. With the moderator added final option the poll is now divided so that people who think there's nothing wrong have one choice and people who think there are problems are divided between 9 options. Only reasonable comparison that can be made according to this poll is that 57% want something from IV back while 43% don't. So where's the majority again?

 

[GustavBjorklund]

Read my explanation of single choice poll from the previous page. With the moderator added final option the poll is now divided so that people who think there's nothing wrong have one choice and people who think there are problems are divided between 9 options. Only reasonable comparison that can be made according to this poll is that 57% want something from IV back while 43% don't. So where's the majority again?

43% say they like Civ5 just the way it is, while 57% dislike one particular feature/want one particular feature and are fine with the rest of Civ5. It could therefore be said that the majority of those who voted like the majority of Civ5.

Regardless, this is a small poll on a small forum catering to a niche audience of Civ5 players. I'd bet you any money in the world that the overwhelming majority of those who bought Civ5 like it just the way it is (including myself). That's not to say it cannot be improved upon, but I don't see how the game would be better by changing out or adding any one of the options in this poll.

 

[kuukkeli]

43% say they like Civ5 just the way it is, while 57% dislike one particular feature/want one particular feature and are fine with the rest of Civ5. It could therefore be said that the majority of those who voted like the majority of Civ5.

What part of SINGLE choice you didn't understand? Voting any of the nine features doesn't mean it's the only feature the voter dislikes - even if you'd dislike them all you could only vote for one. There's no telling if voters dislike only one, two or even all. Only thing that's certain is 57% dislikes at least one feature while 43% likes them all.

I'm sad that I have to explain this

EDIT: To your second added paragraph - I'm only talking about this poll. I'm not starting to guess how the game is liked by all who bought it.

 

[Elvince]

with 9 options negative and only 1 positive, it encourages people to take a negative option.
to make a fair poll you would have needed 5 negative comments and 5 positive comments, not forgetting that the tone of the question encourages the voters to take a stance against civ V.

Conclusion 1:
43% of players liking the game as it is shows that a vast number of people, probably a majority (if the poll was more fair) like the game as it is.

Conclusion 2:
it means Civ V has a strong fundation that need to be improved asap, some leads can be found here in this poll; but the serious stuff is compiled at the top of the forum.

 

[GustavBjorklund]

What part of SINGLE choice you didn't understand? Voting any of the nine features doesn't mean it's the only feature the voter dislikes - even if you'd dislike them all you could only vote for one. There's no telling if voters dislike only one, two or even all. Only thing that's certain is 57% dislikes at least one feature while 43% likes them all.

I'm sad that I have to explain this

EDIT: To your second added paragraph - I'm only talking about this poll. I'm not starting to guess how the game is liked by all who bought it.

I believe you are wrong in adding up all 9 nay-sayer options and billing them as the 57% majority opposed to Civ5.

See Elvince's excellent post.

 

[frags]

Flawed poll is flawed....

 

[Diamondeye]

Not bothering to sift through 200+ posts, let me just add my 2 cents;

Spoiler Lots of text :

1. We want our stack back: 1UPT makes moving units around so tedious and it's hard to get into formations in battle.
No. Just no. Stacks were fun, if ridiculous. It worked within the universe of Civ IV, but Civ V's 1UPT suits the game better.

2. We want the old strategic resource system back: who came up with the idea that one iron mine can only generate one swordman? If I have an iron mine, I should be able to put it to use and build as many iron units as I want.
No. One source of strategic resources should not be enough to supply an empire. This enforced limit necessitates settling/fighting for more sources of strategic resources and adds new depth to trade, army composition and balance.

3. We want our slider back: the ability to shift the macro focus of your empire to either wealth/science/happiness is more dynamic than the current system.
I don't think this is the case. Civ V is another game, and the current system works much better within that game. Global happiness makes War Weariness quite a different figure and not some ridiculous penalty for fighting in enemy terrain. The new role of gold fully justifies that you cannot "slider" it; If you need happiness, buy a luxury ressource, bribe a City State, or shop a coliseum or theatre.

4. We want local happiness back: CiV's global happiness system makes the game MUCH shallower, it's like playing a game for 10-year-olds.
Pretty much answered above, I disagree with this. It minimizes tedious micromanaging and generally fulfills the role that happiness should.

5. No more purchasing units/buildings plz: it makes no sense to buy a building and it's suddenly there the next turn. Firaxis please remove this feature. Realistically, gold should haste the production process, but not producing things out of thin air.
Civ IV had this as well. I don't see where you're headed; Yes, it's not very realistic (then again, a turn is what? 15 years? That's plenty of time to produce anything if all expenses are paid), but is it more realistic that you can do this as soon as you have Universal Suffrage? No!

6. We want religion back: religion is what makes cIV a much deeper game than all others in the series, including ciV. Why did they remove religion?
No... Religion was an interesting experiment, but I agree with Firaxis' decision to keep it out of the game. Diplomacy is subtler in Civ V, and a block-former like religion is not needed. It would also mess with City State relations, in my opinion.

7. Bring back the graphics of cIV: as many players have noted since the game's release, ciV's graphics is absolutely terrible. Rivers and trading posts are just plain ugly. It's just about on par with Civ III if you ask me.
There are some graphical bugs (but who doesn't remember the ocean-bridge aquaducts and lighthouses in lakes?), but these are minor and will be fixed, I'm sure. Besides, they do not impede the game. Only very few graphic bugs really annoy me (and they're just as likely to origin from the fact that my laptop is struggling to run the game with medium graphic options).
Units and cities are far better than in IV, and so is battle graphics. Improvements are fine although roads are a little slow to "line up" properly.

8. We want the old map grid back: sure, hexes are interesting at first glance and seems to make the game look complicated (reminds me of a boardgame), but after several games they begin to get on our nerves.
Nay! Hexes may be the largest move in the right direction for the Civ series. People complain too much about lack of innovation in sequels, and yet this great leap forward is frowned upon?

In conclusion; If I was expecting Civ V to be a remake of Civ IV, I'd be disappointed.
But, I've gotten what I wanted; A new game in a series of fantastic games that is innovative and exciting without letting down the core of what I think Civ is. Design needs innovation if it wants to survive.

 

[kuukkeli]

with 9 options negative and only 1 positive, it encourages people to take a negative option.
to make a fair poll you would have needed 5 negative comments and 5 positive comments, not forgetting that the tone of the question encourages the voters to take a stance against civ V.

Are you saying that a person who likes the whole game is tempted to vote negative option just because there's more of them? Isn't that like saying that people who like the game are stupid (note, I'm not saying that - I'm asking a question)?

Anyways, the positive option was (or so I'd remember) added to the poll by a moderator afterwards. Original it was supposed to be a poll of just what option people like to see back the most. The OP is provocative, yes, but as far as I can see it was originally meant for the people who aren't fully content with the game.

Conclusion 1:
43% of players liking the game as it is shows that a vast number of people, probably a majority (if the poll was more fair) like the game as it.

I'm not claiming this poll reflects the opinions of all people who bought the game but I still say that your interpretation of the result is extremely weird. Somehow you call the fact that 57% of people have shown at least some level of dissatisfaction a good result for the game

Conclusion 2:
it means Civ V has a strong fundation that need to be improved asap, some leads can be found here in this poll; but the serious stuff is compiled at the top of the forum.

Again, this poll tells nothing of the strong foundations. It tells just that out of a small group of people who have voted on this poll majority believe the game would profit by adding one or more features from the previous version to the game.

Flawed poll is flawed....

Great argumentation, I'm just about to flip sides

 

[Öjevind Lång]

There's one thing I really don't like and that is that one no longer can see local happiness/unhappiness in the city display. Often it is unhappiness in one single city, or two cities, that tips the balance, and figuring out where is micromanaging of the worst kind. I like some micromanagement, but Civ VC goes over the top with it. And I want the city governor back! Why has no one asked for that?

 

[Diamondeye]

Are you saying that a person who likes the whole game is tempted to vote negative option just because there's more of them? Isn't that like saying that people who like the game are stupid (note, I'm not saying that - I'm asking a question)?

No. It means that people who think well of the game but are, per example, annoyed at a minor element such as graphics, might vote a negative option. That same voter might have voted otherwise if there had been an option "celebrating" hex tiles, per example.

Anyways, the positive option was (or so I'd remember) added to the poll by a moderator afterwards. Original it was supposed to be a poll of just what option people like to see back the most. The OP is provocative, yes, but as far as I can see it was originally meant for the people who aren't fully content with the game.

Then people have to stop using it as evidence that a plurality hates the game. A plurality of the game cannot admit that it is without one of eight (?) annoying elements. That means that a plurality doesn't think it perfect... What had you expected from an unpatched release?

I'm not claiming this poll reflects the opinions of all people who bought the game but I still say that your interpretation of the result is extremely weird. Somehow you call the fact that 57% of people have shown at least some level of dissatisfaction a good result for the game

Yes - why shouldn't it be? If you had done this to Civ IV when it came out "We want 2d animations back!" "We want the good old ICS back!" "What happened to 'waste'?" "Where're my advisors ?!", so on...

I don't think even 25% would've chosen the last option. Civ V is doing excellent for a release.

Again, this poll tells nothing of the strong foundations. It tells just that out of a small group of people who have voted on this poll majority believe the game would profit by adding one or more features from the previous version to the game.

Or fixing it within the current game. I think lots of the voters on the nine negatives would say, in a month, with some bug fixes and a little getting used to the new game, be inclined to vote differently.

 

[kuukkeli]

No. It means that people who think well of the game but are, per example, annoyed at a minor element such as graphics, might vote a negative option. That same voter might have voted otherwise if there had been an option "celebrating" hex tiles, per example.

This I can agree with. The final option doesn't fit into the poll. Still, there are other polls that all point to same conclusion:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=381961
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387240
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387497

In all of these a large portion (more than 40% in all) show various levels of discontent with the game so I don't think the tone of this one has changed the results that much.

Then people have to stop using it as evidence that a plurality hates the game. A plurality of the game cannot admit that it is without one of eight (?) annoying elements. That means that a plurality doesn't think it perfect... What had you expected from an unpatched release?

I haven't used this one as an evidence. I've argued about how the numbers have been interpreted by some on this poll alone (claims that plurality of voters think the game is fine, etc.). About the final sentence, like I've said in another thread I do expect a new iteration of any game title to be an improvement over previous one. It beats me how people have come to accept it as a norm that games are released in horribly bugged and unbalanced states.

Yes - why shouldn't it be? If you had done this to Civ IV when it came out "We want 2d animations back!" "We want the good old ICS back!" "What happened to 'waste'?" "Where're my advisors ?!", so on...

I don't think even 25% would've chosen the last option. Civ V is doing excellent for a release.

You know there's a search function on this site and lots of those polls were done when IV came out. I just browsed them a bit and the negativity was a lot smaller than what V is getting now.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=11690
http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=11666
http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=11751
http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=11848

Or fixing it within the current game. I think lots of the voters on the nine negatives would say, in a month, with some bug fixes and a little getting used to the new game, be inclined to vote differently.

Again, I agree but that is something we don't see before that month is gone. Now we have these results and they're not very good for Civ5. Also many negative posts about Civ5 are about clear design decisions and I doubt they're fixed by patches.

 

[Diamondeye]

relatively speaking, the Civ IV polls hold true. But none of them have half the voters who're among the last option voters on this one. I'm not saying this is the only reason, I'm just noticing that there are a lot more voters in on this this time around.

All the Civ V votes seem to strike a balance of around 50% who like the game (some a lot), even though some of the votes have titles that are, uhm, less inviting for people who like Civ V ("who agrees that this game is a let down?" probably appeals to a V-hostile audience, I'd think).

I haven't said that this game is horribly bugged and unbalanced, because I don't really think it is. It leans towards military expansion (like Civ IV), and it has effective tactics using game elements such as Maritime City states (even though there are also some clear bugs here, but those will be fixed). The game plays extraordinarily well as is, in my opinion. Fixing the bugs will be icing on the cake for me. So "horribly bugged and unbalanced" is not really my take on it.

It would be neat if games would come out in perfect shape but that won't happen except perhaps a rare bullseye hit. It can't be the expection.

 

[kuukkeli]

relatively speaking, the Civ IV polls hold true. But none of them have half the voters who're among the last option voters on this one. I'm not saying this is the only reason, I'm just noticing that there are a lot more voters in on this this time around.

I think CFC was much smaller community back then (even I joined after that - a bit after Warlords was published I guess). With less voters the error margin grows but as they all show much better reception to IV I do believe that people here actually were more inclined to consider it as an improvement.

All the Civ V votes seem to strike a balance of around 50% who like the game (some a lot), even though some of the votes have titles that are, uhm, less inviting for people who like Civ V ("who agrees that this game is a let down?" probably appeals to a V-hostile audience, I'd think).

Yes. That 50% is far less than the percentage of people in here who liked IV at the time of release which seems to indicate that the opposition this time is not just a resistance to change but due to exact nature of change. In my opinion the attempt to search reasons for the numbers from the tone of polls and OPs is deluding oneself.

I haven't said that this game is horribly bugged and unbalanced, because I don't really think it is.

You didn't, sorry if I implied that way. It was completely my take on the general situation on game market this day.

 

[Vonorian]

I believe I can speak for the majority of the Civ players here regarding features that absolutely must be brought back to Civ V

Umm...no you DON'T speak for the majority of players!

I like the changes to Civ V.

Getting rid of stacks is the best thing that they have ever done for the game.

Like other people have already stated, maybe you should just stick with Civ IV.

 

[aziantuntija]

So you honestly believe that 43% is more than 57% And I've always thought we have pretty good education system here in Finland.

Ive got one word for you just one word, mathematics.

Here is TOP 3 from this poll:

1. Nothing, i like Civ5 how it is . 43.30%

2. Religion: what makes cIV the best in the series! 15.36%

3. Local happiness instead of the shallow global happiness. 11.09%

Here is my comment on that poll:

Look at that! By adding that one small option in to your poll of many choices you almost instantly got huge amounts of voters and that option became instantly the majority .

Do you now get it?