Firaxis: Patch coming next week

[rob.derosa]

Okay - if 100 complaining people represent 50-80% of sales, how can they then be a quarter that bought it?

Our public schools are failing us...

Venger

he was being sarcastic

and what is your problem. the game doesnt work, does that somehow give you an excuse to make snide comments at other people on the forum?

 

[Kwyjibo]

Venger,

Again, what is your problem? Instead of dicussing this matter in a civilised manner, all you can do is revert to personally attacking people... You question my intelligence, my education (the fact that I'm speaking to you in English, wich is not my native language is a pointer to how I am adapting to your eduction level...), my integrity, my honesty. I've not given you any reason to question those. You also ask if people who have nothing usefull to add to this forum, to stay out of it, well I think the way you are bashing people is not very usefull or necessery. You make sarcastic comments like 'it must work for you, so it must work for everyone', but using your same twisted logic you also imply 'It doesn't work for me, so everyone must be having problem with this 'broken' game'. The reason people are saying it runs fine on their system is to point out that with similar hardware/software the game can be made to run, and we are all trying to find the essential culpritt that makes it so difficult for some people to run this game. I understand your frustration for not being able to make this game work, but bashing people with a working game is absolutely pointless...

If I have somehow personally offended you (I don't know how, but nevertheless...) I apologize, and I think we should continue this discussion in a civilised fashion. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion (what is a forum for?), and I think that should be respected (unless off course your opinion is that I am a ****, as I don't think anyone is really helped by that opinion).

As for 'your' public school failing me;

If 50-80% of people (take an average and push that number a bit, let's say 75%) of people are not able to run this game, and they total 100 sales (say the aproximate number of posts on this board for people complaining), then 100% of total sales (by this logic 133 units) minus 100 sales=33 units (33 out of 133=25%) hence a quarter is able to run it... Or maybe you could lighten up and consider what someone else already pointed out, that I was maybe being sarcastic...

By the way, the person that claimed Civ4 'wrecked' his HD, he said his PC booted up fine after his initial Civ4 crash, and then crashed a few times more running word etc. before finally dying. To me that is a strong indication about the physical condition of his harddrive (I've had a similar experience twice, once with a brand new HD, and once with a 2 year old one) and I doubt Civ4 is to blame for that.

 

[HounddogLGS]

Whats with all you people, a piece of software without bugs is like a doughnut without a hole. If a day goes by where there isn't something for me to fix on a computer then it just doesn't feel complete.

Amen! You'd think that would be obvious since 90% of the people here are running a Windows OS.

My, isn't this thread getting lively. You should see the one with the Brits and Frenchies bashing each other. Now thats entertainment!

 

[Chaotic42]

Well, I let the game sit for 8 hours.

The computer froze at some point, but when it did freeze, it wasn't using any more memory.

 

[Corkmaster]

You should see the one with the Brits and Frenchies bashing each other. Now thats entertainment!

I missed that; must go and join in.

 

[doggiedaddy]

Lets see. I loaded the game, i played it for 2 hrs, it crashed to the blue screen of doom. Ok. I restarted my computer and went about my buisness, using word and such, the computer crashed again an hour later, and then an hour after that. Then it crashed one last time and that was the end of my harddrive.

Its all "lol" when your a fan boy, but when a game breaks your HD its a whole different matter. But you know, I'm not a bitter man so I hope you never have to encounter this problem.

Wow. Which part of your post is lamer, the fanboy reference or the end of your harddrive?

As I've asked on here before, when was the last time you defragged? When was the last time you cleaned your registry? I know from experience that a corrupt registry can and will doom your system. Then with every virus and worm in the known universe running around on the net, there's always that possibility as well. When my computers have died, you know who's fault it has been? Mine. If software doesn't run, it doesn't run. It doesn't kill your hardware.

But I guess all that just makes me a fanboy, huh?

 

[Venger]

he was being sarcastic

Oh PLEASE... I see the Magic Excuse Making Machine works on more than just Civ4...

and what is your problem. the game doesnt work, does that somehow give you an excuse to make snide comments at other people on the forum?

I think what you will find is a return in kind of the casual dismissal and patronizing attitude you and others have had in this thread - that somehow, because the program works for you, it's therefore NOT the fault of the program when it doesn't work for someone else. It's ignorant, totally unhelpful, and smarmy.

"how come it works like a charm on my computer then" - nominated for most unhelpful comment of the week award. Just WHAT are you adding with this observation? NOTHING. And let's check this gem:

"you hadnt seen your bios for 6 weeks. so you left a windows machine running for 6 weeks.... HAHA no wonder your having so much problems."

This is prescription-strength stupid. What are you adding here? NOTHING. And you couldn't be MORE wrong - a properly maintained system running a stable OS does NOT need to be constantly rebooted, in fact having to reboot your computer IS a sign of instability, not the inverse.

Unless you are trying to prove your keyboard works, I have seen little merit in what you've posted...

Venger

 

[Glibe]

Just curious, did you send it through their bug report form, Snackwell?

 

[meowsqueak]

Software can kill your hardware, especially badly written drivers - consider bus contention as an obvious example. Another common way to kill hardware is to use software that enables incompatible features, such as those provided by HDDs. It's fairly straightforward to come up with examples.

What is relevant however is this: user programs (which is a subset of 'software' should not be able to a). crash the operating system or b). access hardware without permission or controls. While I'm no Windows fan, WindowsXP is one of the more stable incarnations. If a program (such as Civ4) is causing it to reboot or crash, then that is a problem with the operating system, not necessarily the game (although the game might have a bug that is triggering this OS/driver bug). Badly behaved software should be terminated without affecting the rest of the system. If WinXP is dying, it's most likely a driver issue or even a hardware problem (does anyone think consumer grade hardware is even close to perfect?).

So it's entirely possible that Civ4 was the first application to trigger this catastrophic sequence that resulted in HDD failure, but I wouldn't blame Civ4 - it's like borrowing someone's car and having the brakes suddenly fail - if it didn't happen to you it would have happened to someone else driving the same car sooner or later. Even if Civ4 is the only software that causes this problem, if the OS is sidestepping it's responsibility, then you can't blame the software.

 

[rob.derosa]

Oh PLEASE... I see the Magic Excuse Making Machine works on more than just Civ4...



I think what you will find is a return in kind of the casual dismissal and patronizing attitude you and others have had in this thread - that somehow, because the program works for you, it's therefore NOT the fault of the program when it doesn't work for someone else. It's ignorant, totally unhelpful, and smarmy.

"how come it works like a charm on my computer then" - nominated for most unhelpful comment of the week award. Just WHAT are you adding with this observation? NOTHING. And let's check this gem:

"you hadnt seen your bios for 6 weeks. so you left a windows machine running for 6 weeks.... HAHA no wonder your having so much problems."

This is prescription-strength stupid. What are you adding here? NOTHING. And you couldn't be MORE wrong - a properly maintained system running a stable OS does NOT need to be constantly rebooted, in fact having to reboot your computer IS a sign of instability, not the inverse.

Unless you are trying to prove your keyboard works, I have seen little merit in what you've posted...

Venger

my word. did you even read the reply i wrote when you threw those points at me earlier? i bet you didnt.

and by saying it works on our computers, means that it might, scary as it may seem, be something wrong with YOUR COMPUTER.

 

[Venger]

Venger,

Again, what is your problem?

My problem is that Civ4 does not run consistently nor propery.

Instead of dicussing this matter in a civilised manner, all you can do is revert to personally attacking people...

I have gone directly after your reasoning and positions, sir, the last refuge of a losing argument is an appeal to an affront to honor...

You and those who have doggedly determined to blame Civ4's difficulties on the buyer, not the seller, based on nothing more than YOUR ability to run the game, will not get a free pass in implying that those with problems have a junk computer - which you have done REPEATEDLY - or are otherwise negligent in maintaining the system in operating condition. When you have NOTHING to base it on other than your invective and ignorance.

You feel put upon? Stop telling people who have problems that the problems are of their making when you haven't a CLUE as to the truth.

You question my intelligence, my education (the fact that I'm speaking to you in English, wich is not my native language is a pointer to how I am adapting to your eduction level...), my integrity, my honesty. I've not given you any reason to question those.

I have been careful to make sure that I dismantle your ARGUMENTS, not you. Your claim of a million Civ4 sold in a week - then your utter mistatement of my position - along with question begging and outright baiting, arguing against thing I have not even SAID - "I suspect so you can say later 'look at this thread, NO one seems to be able to run Civ4'." If you feel your integrity is under assault, I would examine what it is you are arguing in here, and if IT is what is making your integrity suspect.

You also ask if people who have nothing usefull to add to this forum, to stay out of it, well I think the way you are bashing people is not very usefull or necessery. You make sarcastic comments like 'it must work for you, so it must work for everyone',

This isn't mere sarcasm, it is a RHETORICAL DEVICE that exposes the BROKEN LOGIC you and others have been peddling in here. Look at dear Rob - "how come it runs on my machine like a charm" - THIS is the problem, YOU and others who think that because it runs on your machine, failure to run on another indicates a problem with the MACHINE, not the SOFTWARE, and that is woefully ignorant of the facts.

but using your same twisted logic you also imply 'It doesn't work for me, so everyone must be having problem with this 'broken' game'.

That's YOUR broken logic, chum - you'll note that MY discussions of problems with this game cite NUMEROUS people with complaints, across NUMEROUS platforms. My first posts were INQUISITIVE in nature as to if the problems I was having were isolated to a small number, or widespread, and ANYONE with a gram of intellectual honesty would have to admit reading these threads that there is a CLEAR PROBLEM with the game. In fact, FIRAXIS and 2KGAMES also seem to agree since they are rushing a patch out to us next week.

The reason people are saying it runs fine on their system

Is that what you said? Note, there have been NUMEROUS posts from helpful people mentioning their hardware configuration and indicating they have had no problems. Have you seen anyone complain about them? No - but people HAVE taken to task the "take care of your crappy hardware" or "junk comptuer" - in fact YOU Went to great lengths to discuss what consitutes a "crappy system", and you have never had a game not work because you do the "necessery (sic) maintenance". So, it would work for me if *I* did the necessery (sic) maintenance on my crappy system? Please, sir, spend less time giving us your musings on what makes a computer "good" or "bad", and what constitutes "necessery (sic) maintenance" - since you have no idea how good or bad ANY of the computers are that are having issues.

is to point out that with similar hardware/software the game can be made to run, and we are all trying to find the essential culpritt that makes it so difficult for some people to run this game. I understand your frustration for not being able to make this game work, but bashing people with a working game is absolutely pointless...

Another appeal to honor - NOBODY has bashed someone because their computer runs Civ4. What HAS happened is ill-considered statements and childish outbursts from those who think that since Civ4 runs fine for them they should feel free to state directly or indirectly that there just must be something wrong with OUR computers, not the software... despite the fact that most people with issues in Civ4 report few if any issues with ANY other game. Do you HONESTLY think someone who hasn't been able to play recent games without errors comes in here after buying Civ4 and relays disbelief at the game's non-performance? PLEASE...

If I have somehow personally offended you (I don't know how, but nevertheless...) I apologize, and I think we should continue this discussion in a civilised fashion. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion (what is a forum for?), and I think that should be respected (unless off course your opinion is that I am a ****, as I don't think anyone is really helped by that opinion).

Civilized discussion should come naturally in a Civ forum...

As for 'your' public school failing me;

If 50-80% of people (take an average and push that number a bit, let's say 75%) of people are not able to run this game, and they total 100 sales (say the aproximate number of posts on this board for people complaining), then 100% of total sales (by this logic 133 units) minus 100 sales=33 units (33 out of 133=25%) hence a quarter is able to run it... Or maybe you could lighten up and consider what someone else already pointed out, that I was maybe being sarcastic...

Sarcasm - A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.

Sorry, it doesn't meet the requirements for that term. And your math doesn't add up as stated. But it's forgivable...

By the way, the person that claimed Civ4 'wrecked' his HD, he said his PC booted up fine after his initial Civ4 crash, and then crashed a few times more running word etc. before finally dying. To me that is a strong indication about the physical condition of his harddrive (I've had a similar experience twice, once with a brand new HD, and once with a 2 year old one) and I doubt Civ4 is to blame for that.

I've made my statements on that matter - a crashing program can thrash your HD data, but physical damage is remote to the point of being fantastic. His issue isn't the larger one. The larger one is the number of threads here littered with comments (many from folks just now registering) that reek of juvenile insecurity in telling those with issues that it just MUST be their computer, in between also telling us that it's software, what should we expect?

Venger

 

[Scotty Mack]

Just thought I'd veer this topic away from some of the child-like behaviour displayed here towards something more constructive.

The game runs wonderfully for me, not a glitch or a jerk or a crash or a stutter. (computer specs deliberately witheld)
A veteran as I am, this game was soon adorned with 'the best game i've ever played' tag. Then I discovered a crippling diplomacy bug. I've reported it and now it awaits fixing and until then it's 'best game ever' tag has been covered up.

(since then, I've checked the bugs forum and discovered several other serious variations on this diplomacy bug. Hopefully the patch next week will address this).

I can see Civ IV reclaiming itself as the King of all Games (once the diplomacy bug is sorted) as far as I'm concerned. A tremendous achievement. Utterly spellbinding. (To be) A work of art.

Scotty

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: People - calm down. These little snipes at each other are completely pointless.

Stop it now - and this includes any "right to respond" that you may feel you have to any points raised previously.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: Posts deleted - I was serious about 'no right of reply'.

 

[rob.derosa]

So, anyone have an information as to when this week its due out?

 

[macsteve]

To Butlerj1982:
Thanks for backing me up on my car analogy--both video games and automobiles are goods, of course--but I'm wondering (I don't know) if anyone has ever successfully overcome your EULA argument by arguing that a EULA is nothing more than a contract of adhesion and therefore unenforceable against the end user?

At the very least I'm going to let the Massachusetts AG know what's going on with Civ IV. I urge others who have had problems to do the same with their state attorneys general.

 

[Venger]

Keep in mind macsteve that NO agreement is valid in light of fraud or gross negligence. Also, to be binding, a contract must be an exchange of value - a program that doesn't work has no value.

All that said, I think legal action at this point is likely to no good end. Firaxis will fix the problems, I am almost positive. At this point, anyone could argue that Firaxis is attempting to act in good faith to make good on their end of the deal, and until they just throw up their hands and say "Well, no patches, we're moving on to Civ5", then their is little room to roam legally...

Venger

 

[civzombie]

"a program that doesn't work has no value. "

Venger - I hope you are not a law student. The law of contracts does not value consideration. Even giving up a peppercorn can be bargained for consideration.

 

[Venger]

In order for a contract to be binding it MUST have value (consideration) to all parties and binds both parties with an obligation to perform - something that has no value does not meet this requirement. The law generally tries to stay out of valuations as it never wants to be arbitering "fair" deals, but a program that does not run is both defective as consideration, and of no value and hence confers no benefit, which a contract must have to be valid. This notion underlies our concepts of fraud - fraud is basically a violation of contract, be it a lie told to obtain consideration, or taking of consideration without obliging to fulfill the terms of the agreement.

And I return to this - you cannot waive liability for fraud or gross negligence. If for instance you agreed to a EULA to a new game from Microsoft that, when installed, accidentally formatted your drive, Microsoft WOULD be liable - you cannot waive liability for fraud or gross negligence, only simple... unless the law has dramatically changed of late... though I don't think you were adressing that.

Venger

 

[civzombie]

"and of no value and hence confers no benefit, which a contract must have to be valid"

Consideration requires bargained for legal detriment. There is no requirement of conferring a benefit. Such reasoning has been rejected for a very long time. See Hamer v. Sidway, 124 N.Y. 538, 27 N.E. 256.

"This notion underlies our concepts of fraud - fraud is basically a violation of contract, be it a lie told to obtain consideration, or taking of consideration without obliging to fulfill the terms of the agreement."

The taking of consideration without obliging to fulfull the terms of an agreement is not fraud. Failing to fufill the terms of a contract is simply breach of contract. Anyway, I listed the elements of fraud below:
1. Misrepresentation of a material fact (a lie),
2. scienter (the lier knew what he said was a lie),
3. intent (the lier intended to induce action or refrain in reliance on the lie
4. causation
5. Justifiable reliance



"And I return to this - you cannot waive liability for fraud or gross negligence. If for instance you agreed to a EULA to a new game from Microsoft that, when installed, accidentally formatted your drive, Microsoft WOULD be liable - you cannot waive liability for fraud or gross negligence, only simple... unless the law has dramatically changed of late... though I don't think you were adressing that."

I was not addressing this. Anyway, you are correct that many, many license agreements purport to waive rights that cannot be waived, or purport to waive claims that cannot be waived. Favorities include things like "by signing here you assume all risk of liability." Ha ha ha.