FiRe! - Fall into Revolution

[arkham4269]

Would it be possible to make an algorithm (I'm an English major so I don't know) where the AI would calculate why the people are unhappy and thus would pick the type of rebel leader. I mean I would think if you are playing a aggressive Cassiel, you'd have the pacifist element want to break off. Or if playing Doviello, if you spend to much time building up your culture and the like, the rebels would want to return to the old 'Klingon' ways as it were.

However, as I mentioned in previous posts, I'm more interested in seeing Barbarian cities morphing into minor Civs. I'd think it would be relatively easy to create one or two semi-generic Minor Civs. I'm thinking one would be a more 'civilized' Clan since many of the barbarians are Orc/Goblin tribes that obviously turned away from raiding and reaving. I'd also think it'd be nice to see a sort of polygot Civ where you have a conglomeration of different races. So maybe they'd have human champions, elvish archers, goblin riders and the like.

Plus, the events that cause Calabim refugees makes it seem like a likely scenario would be Calabim refugees hook up with barbarians and sort of lead them into Civilization. So you'd have a 'nicer' Calabim where they are more neutral but don't have vampires (which is probably why they fled; to get away from becoming a meal). One might extrapolate then have this Minor Civ have mostly the normal, generic units or perhaps a mix of Clan and what ever non-vampire tech the Calabim use. I mean you'd expect them to almost be the 'Buffy the Slayer' race that focuses on killing undead.

 

[Jean Elcard]

1) The Mercurians and Infernals spawn as normal civs from rebellion.
2) When Cassiel II or Auric Ulvin II take over, their civ can adopt a religion. The 2nd version of a leader should have the same traits of the previous.

I'll take care of point 1. I'm not really sure what to do about point 2. Like Ajidica said, somehow it seems right, that the new leader isn't exactly the old one. He might have changed some stuff, but from a civ background point of view, the new leader should have at least agnostic as one of his traits.

What about heroes and unique units? If Cassiel II takes three of my Lunnotars, can I build three more? Can Cassiel II steal away all my brutal heroes?

Heroes are limited on a world-wide basis, so you have to race for getting them first.

Won't change this. There Can Be Only One!

Have you implemented anything different than in revolution mod?

No big game changing stuff so far. I just want to get Revolution to work nicely with FfH in its original fashion before I add too many FfH specific things. I need to understand Rev's inner workings first before I'm ready to expand them.

Yesterday I revised Revolution's civic xml tags and changed their values to fit the FfH Civics. All in all religion in general, to have the holy city of your state religion and running the "good" civics play a bigger role now in keeping potential revolutioners under control. At least I hope so.

@Mailbox, TheJopa, arkham4269: I like many of your ideas for deciding which revolutioners should spawn and which leader they should have. It goes all on the list: revolutioners based on religion, civics, minorities ... I'll see what's possible. For now I'll chose the revolutioners mostly on base of the nation they come from. For this I could need some help. My current list of revolutioners that make sense looks like this:

Spoiler :

[*]Bannor:         Calabim, Malakim

[*]Malakim:        Calabim, Bannor

[*]Elohim:         Bannor, Amurites

[*]Luchuirp:       Khazad

[*]Kuriotates:     Sheaim

[*]Ljosalfar:      Svartalfar, Malakim

[*]Khazad:         Luchuirp

[*]Sidar:          Elohim

[*]Lanun:          Hippus

[*]Grigori:        Sidar

[*]Hippus:         Lanun

[*]Amurites:       Sheaim, Elohim

[*]Doviello:       Illians

[*]Balseraphs:     Bannor

[*]ClanOfEmbers:   

[*]Svartalfar:     Ljosalfar, Malakim

[*]Calabim:        Bannor, Malakim

[*]Sheaim:         Amurites, Kuriotates

[*]Illians:        Doviello

[*]Infernal:       ClanOfEmbers

[*]Mercurians:     Elohim, Bannor

Some of these lists could be a bit longer. Maybe you have some ideas? Malakim, Bannor and Calabim was easy for example, because of Decius. To let the Sartalfar and Malakim split from the Ljosalfar too. After this it becomes really fast very difficult. Clan of Embers, Sidar, Grigori and Balseraphs especially. If you have some ideas, please tell me.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

awesome updates coming

some thoughts on the list of possible revolutioners:

Kurios could spawn any civ I guess, given their interracial nature.

Lanun could spawn from balseraphs and viceversa given their affinity for OO and that OO are all madmen

Hippus could spawn Doviello and viceversa, depending on if a seperate factions wants to get more organized or more feral.

Infernals could spawn Sheaim, since they both want armageddon but maybe in different ways so tension might spark.

Bannor could spawn Clan of Embers, think they start to worship Bhall again and get corrupted, and viceversa aka Orc Redemption

 

[Tarquelne]

After this it becomes really fast very difficult. Clan of Embers, Sidar, Grigori and Balseraphs especially. If you have some ideas, please tell me.

For the CoEmbers I suggest making a change-leader (AI), civic or "disorganized revolutionaries" (barbarians) much more likely. ie, the worst result - part of the civ splitting away - is less likely, but less organized forms of unrest are more likely. Then, if there is a splitting away, I suggest the Bannor (former Bhall worshipers, IIRC(?)) or the Elohim. When they break away they break big.

I suggest padding short lists with Sheaim, Balseraph, Sidar, Grigori and any other civs that make sense as take-overs or "millennial" cults.

If you make a FF version, btw, I think Scions would break into Sidar, Amurites, or Grigori.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

umh, every civ should probably have a chance of spawning revolutioners that are part of the barbarian state. this should be a very high chance for the clan of Embers, high for the Doviello, and high-ish for the Hippus I guess. Balseraphs should get a high chance for this to happen as well, since they're all crazy and stuff.

 

[Jean Elcard]

You guys are fast! Thanks a lot. These are all very good suggestions. I would never have thought of the Bannor (or the Elohim) as the most likey revolutioners in clan territory. Too add the Kuriotates to every civ would be too much in my opinion. But they could spawn from cities with many different cultural influences I think. Maybe I caan implement it this way.

Do I rember right, that the Grigori are people (humans?), who don't want anything to do with the god-induced wars on Erebus? They would be break-away candidates for religious fanatics like the Bannor, Malakim and Sheaim then.

I'll see how this disorganized revolutioners code works. You are right, the barbarian nations should be more likey to spawn them.

Before I consider a conversion to Fall Further (and adding the scions) I'll stay a while with the good old plain FfH. Hopefully 0.34 will be stable enough soon. I suppose I will run into some interface issues for sure with it. No point in fixing interface incompatibilities for 0.33 at the moment.

 

[arkham4269]

Before I consider a conversion to Fall Further (and adding the scions) I'll stay a while with the good old plain FfH. Hopefully 0.34 will be stable enough soon. I suppose I will run into some interface issues for sure with it. No point in fixing interface incompatibilities for 0.33 at the moment.

Well I think that a lot of the FF races (Kahd and Davros...oh damn, that's the Dalek guy. Hmmm, you know the scholar race) would be nice because they could represent folks that reject war and thus could spawn off of warlike races, especially if they stay at war and create way to many .

The Austrin look like they'd spawn off from Luann and vice-versa. The two lizard races probably could only spawn from each other. The Archos look like they could span to Clan or maybe even the Dwarves since they lived underground for a long time. In fact, having them spawn from the dwarves might work.

 

[Skitters]

@Mailbox, TheJopa, arkham4269: I like many of your ideas for deciding which revolutioners should spawn and which leader they should have. It goes all on the list: revolutioners based on religion, civics, minorities ... I'll see what's possible. For now I'll chose the revolutioners mostly on base of the nation they come from. For this I could need some help. My current list of revolutioners that make sense looks like this:

Spoiler :

[*]Bannor:         Calabim, Malakim

[*]Malakim:        Calabim, Bannor

[*]Elohim:         Bannor, Amurites

[*]Luchuirp:       Khazad

[*]Kuriotates:     Sheaim

[*]Ljosalfar:      Svartalfar, Malakim

[*]Khazad:         Luchuirp

[*]Sidar:          Elohim

[*]Lanun:          Hippus

[*]Grigori:        Sidar

[*]Hippus:         Lanun

[*]Amurites:       Sheaim, Elohim

[*]Doviello:       Illians

[*]Balseraphs:     Bannor

[*]ClanOfEmbers:   

[*]Svartalfar:     Ljosalfar, Malakim

[*]Calabim:        Bannor, Malakim

[*]Sheaim:         Amurites, Kuriotates

[*]Illians:        Doviello

[*]Infernal:       ClanOfEmbers

[*]Mercurians:     Elohim, Bannor

Some of these lists could be a bit longer. Maybe you have some ideas? Malakim, Bannor and Calabim was easy for example, because of Decius. To let the Sartalfar and Malakim split from the Ljosalfar too. After this it becomes really fast very difficult. Clan of Embers, Sidar, Grigori and Balseraphs especially. If you have some ideas, please tell me.

Not knowing the revolution mod too well could I just to clarify, does this mean that if Illians rebel they would/(could?) become the Doviello? (and thus build Doviello units/buildings)

Or are they an Illian 2 - but just renamed Doviello? Or would they request to join these civs if they are present?

If they are Illian 2, is it just a preferential new name list to try to avoid duplication (presumably the mechanic would ignore where a civ is already in place)?

Or would it be more than that - ie; perhaps also taking an 'available' leader from the civ? (So in the above example, the rebel Illians could find themselves headed by Mahala/Charadon).

Indeed, would it be feasible to have 'available' leaders be used to lead the new civs? (could possibly result in Perpentech of the Elohim Republic...but for me would be better than having duplicated leaders)

Final question, if civs are duplicated (ie; Illians 1, 2 & 3), do the break off states also get the World spells? [reals in horror at the thought of 60 years worth of stasis]

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Sidar would break off from the Malakim, as they were formed by men using the Books of Laroth that Varn took with him out of the Shadowed Vale which were presumably stored in some Empyrean monetary until Sandalphon found them.

 

[Nor'easter]

I played jdog's original revolution mod (I think that was pre-Warlords!) and thought it was a lot of fun, really dynamic gameplay, so I'm glad someone took a shot at modmodding this with FfH. Look forward to trying it out.

 

[arkham4269]

Or would it be more than that - ie; perhaps also taking an 'available' leader from the civ? (So in the above example, the rebel Illians could find themselves headed by Mahala/Charadon).

Well I'm not artist and I don't know how hard it is to get artwork for new leaders, but couldn't some 'auxiliary' leaders be created? I mean adding new leaders isn't that hard, except for the artwork, right? I mean in FF, the artwork for the Kahd is a pic of Toshiro Mufune!

I think I mentioned this before. Have some leaders that only come out as rebels. Maybe they'd be the opposite (or close to it) of the current leader. So if Calabim had Alexis (Agg/Phil and Evil) maybe the rebel Calabim (if they become a Calabim 2) might be lead by Sir SoAndSo (Def/Ind and Neutral) to represent the folks that are tired of doing all the work (and getting made into dinner for their trouble ) while all the Vampire lords do is loll around, drinking Bloodied Mary and thinking philosophical thoughts.

(Although I still think a Minor Civ race based on a anti-vampire/undead civ that breaks away from the Calabim would be cool)

Another idea is to make up a 'generic' Minor Civ that represents barbarian cities when they become too civilized. You then could take an idea from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: Alien Crossfire and have it that when a major Civ has revolts, those cities join that Minor Civ. Maybe they could be something like "The League" or "The Council of All" that represent folks that sort of want to be left alone. I mean after the Age of Winter and all that hassle, you'd think there would be a lot of people who just want to be left in peace to start fresh and not have to jump right back into the whole fight between Good and Evil.

Oh, not sure of the coding and all, but is there any way to tell distance or whether or not cities are separated by water? I was playing one Mod where you could get a breakdown for why a city was getting cranky and certain cities were listed as colonies. I ask this because I would think that cities far that are colonies (i.e. different continent) would have a chance to become a new Civ (Khazad to Luichirp for example) rather than becoming a second version of the Civ w/a different leader.

Also, since the computer tracks how much a city has of a certain race, wouldn't a city of a different race (even one destroyed) revolt back to that race? Or is that how it works already?

Of course for barbarians, I really wish someone could get the code for that old mobile camp used in that Warlord (?) Mongol scenario so you could have wandering tribes of barbarians roaming around the board and so not tied to a city to create new units. Not to mention, that would make a killer event, with a bunch of them being spawned and then attacking the Civilized nations.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Kurios shouldn't spawn FROM ANY civ, they should be able to spawn MOST civs. AFAIK, they are a very interracial and welcoming civ, so you'd expect to find a lot of different people in their cities/settlements

 

[TheJopa]

Also, since the computer tracks how much a city has of a certain race, wouldn't a city of a different race (even one destroyed) revolt back to that race? Or is that how it works already?

I was thinking about this as well. Since there something that tracks this for Elohim Tolerant trait, it shouldn't be too hard to find it and make rebels of that lands.

And no, right now it is not made so that you get rebels of the right race.

 

[FireBlaze]

Wow.

Thats really all that can decribe this.
I love the idea for this, and really hope you get it up and running asap.
Or better yet, loaded w/ FF, so I can run them all at once

 

[Ekolite]

I don't think that Mercurian or Infernal cities should be able to revolt, just doesn't feel right.

Also, it would be good if the chance for revolts of any kind could be influenced by a modifier of the Civ's palace, like war weariness is. That wauy you could use it to balance some civs better as well as providing some extra flavour.

Therefore, you could make it so the Bannor get a -30% chance for revolts, which would make them a bit more competitive then now, as well as providing some flavour. Bannor are trained to obey and rebellion wouldn't be something natural to them. The Balseraph on the other hand, maybe prone to follow who ever has the biggest smile and would get a +20% chance of rebellion. This would also off-set they're awesomeness.

If only the svartalfar or the ljosalfar are in the game, I think there should be a reasonable chance that the other spawns by a rebellion in one of their cities.

 

[arkham4269]

I don't think that Mercurian or Infernal cities should be able to revolt, just doesn't feel right.

Of course if Mercurians are in the game, you'd think that Bannor cities might want to revolt to 'join the fight'.

The problem I have with FfH, and I believe it is a vanilla BTS issue, is I don't like how many good races end up with 'evil' religions and vice-versa. I mean it seems there needs to be a better mechanic to show a corruption going on.

I would think that the revolts might do this. So if a good race, like Bannor under Sabatheil ends up with Ashen Veil, maybe certain cities would revolt and either go AV under Decius, or cities revolt and reject AV as their religion.

It just irritates me when I try to play a game with 6 players (including me) and I'll pick (let's say) a good race and then set the other players as x2 Random Neutral, x2 Random Evil and x1 Random Good to get a mix and yet due to religion I've had games where suddenly it seems everyone is evil!

I would think 'competing' religions would be a major factor in revolts. I mean if I'm Bannor w/Order and some of my cities have OO, well I'm thinking there is going to be trouble. On that note, who the cities revolt into might also help decide if the rebels become a Nation 2 or a new Civ. I mean if the rebelling cities have the same religion, you'd think they'd be Nation 2, but if they mostly had a different religion present, then they'd break off to a new Civ.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

good ideas here, I fully agree with bot Kol. 7 and arkham4269

 

[TheJopa]

How about pretender rebels that seek to overthrow your leader and to put new one with new traits (generic like minister Koun, or second leader of your civ) in charge?

Some leaders could not be overthrown, like Cassiel or Basium, so in that case you would just experience trait switch.

Also, is there a chance for rebel negotiation screen?

 

[arkham4269]

An interesting thing came up in the "Cult of the Dragon" thread which has the intent of bringing back the CotD into the game.

MagisterCultuum pointed out that Archeron was released from his prison due to the fury of Orcs. If CotD is added back in (as many of us are pushing for) one could see that if CotD is present in a lot of cities that then rebel, you might have this trigger an event where this releases another Dragon along the lines of Archeron to defend this new AI Civ. Whether or not this Dragon has a Dragon's Hoard or not is up for debate, but it would also make the new Civ a lot harder to take back by the player or any of the more developed AI Civ's.

 

[TheJopa]

Is this still worked on? I'd REALLY want to try this.