First Impressions Collection/Discussion

[grug]

The top bonus in that list is the Legacy Trait

So does that mean, for instance, the Huns would not see bonuses to cavalry during the Classical Era, but after? Or does the Legacy Trait take effect as soon as you adopt the culture?

The Builder and Scientist abilities might not seem as "creative" as Militarist and Agrarian, but I personally find that they have as much or often more impact on my strategy.

I meant more from a historical perspective than a gameplay one. From a gameplay perspective I don't think I've ever seen it before and I think its pretty clever.

But what would be the historical equivalent of going industry mode, or going science mode? Literally just changing the names could be enough, and since its still in alpha I'm not worried. But I think it would be more interesting if "industry mode" were instead something like public works funding, euergatism, or wartime production, with associated mechanics and limitations, like having it limited to using production on buildings vs units or something. Or maybe "science mode" could be something like technological revolution or research investments, where a new tech can boost FIM or something.

On the other hand, simple is always better, and having a straightforward, fun-to-play design trumps historical nuance. But I think a few minor modifications, even as small as picking a different name, could give it a more creative design from a historical perspective.

 

[Elhoim]

So does that mean, for instance, the Huns would not see bonuses to cavalry during the Classical Era, but after? Or does the Legacy Trait take effect as soon as you adopt the culture?

I'm pretty sure it works as soon as you adopt the culture and then stays as legacy.

 

[CivLuvah]

Also consider combinations of different cultures. The Babylonian "+2 Science on Extensions" turns into "+2 Industry on Extensions" if you switch to a Builder Culture later and turn on their ability, and in the same vein the Celtic and Mayan "+3 Food/Industry on Exploitation" can give you some huge scientific leaps in a later Era by taking a Scientist Culture.

So does that mean the quantity of the bonus that we get from one culture in one era will continue on when we move to another, with the only difference being the affinity?

 

[grug]

So does that mean the quantity of the bonus that we get from one culture in one era will continue on when we move to another, with the only difference being the affinity?

I think he was referring to the "industry mode" ability for builder cultures that converts excess science, food, and money to industry for 5 turns. The legacy trait stays the same, so Babylon still gives +2 science on extensions.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

So does that mean, for instance, the Huns would not see bonuses to cavalry during the Classical Era, but after? Or does the Legacy Trait take effect as soon as you adopt the culture?

I meant more from a historical perspective than a gameplay one. From a gameplay perspective I don't think I've ever seen it before and I think its pretty clever.

But what would be the historical equivalent of going industry mode, or going science mode? Literally just changing the names could be enough, and since its still in alpha I'm not worried. But I think it would be more interesting if "industry mode" were instead something like public works funding, euergatism, or wartime production, with associated mechanics and limitations, like having it limited to using production on buildings vs units or something. Or maybe "science mode" could be something like technological revolution or research investments, where a new tech can boost FIM or something.

The Legacy traits kick in as soon as you pick the Culture.
And I do agree than "Industry mode" and "Science Mode" are not exactly exciting names. But I urge you to keep in mind that this was an early build we shared with the press, and you will see a lot of placeholders in these. (Case in point, the "range" icon on the unit stats was a placeholder as well.)
The basic "flavor" idea behind them is similar to what you suggested, though: redirection of resources by one form or another. We may keep this vague, as the description has to fit six different eras, but it's about putting funds into construction or research projects, about having your researchers apply themselves to more efficient construction methods and solving problems with whatever projects you're working on, etc.

So does that mean the quantity of the bonus that we get from one culture in one era will continue on when we move to another, with the only difference being the affinity?

I think he was referring to the "industry mode" ability for builder cultures that converts excess science, food, and money to industry for 5 turns. The legacy trait stays the same, so Babylon still gives +2 science on extensions.

Yes, exactly. I find both these abilities to be really useful for turning an advantage gained by a legacy trait or emblematic quarter into an advantage in another area.

 

[Elhoim]

I really love how in a way you can create your own Civ piece by piece. Instead of having 3-4 abilities front-loaded like in Civ, you pick 6 of them during the whole game, actually adapting to what's better on your current situation (or creating your own civ).

 

[tedhebert]

I really love how in a way you can create your own Civ piece by piece. Instead of having 3-4 abilities front-loaded like in Civ, you pick 6 of them during the whole game, actually adapting to what's better on your current situation (or creating your own civ).

Exactly THIS ! I always found Civ games to be close to the top as far as game replayability is concerned, but... this setup has the potential of taking it to another level altogether.

I remain a little dubious about the 'transcending' option, as very little information has come out about it so far, and it feels at this moment (IMO) as if it won't be very tempting to use, but if it does turn out to be of interest, it'll make those decisions so much more interesting and very the games even more. I'm very excited.

 

[Elhoim]

Exactly THIS ! I always found Civ games to be close to the top as far as game replayability is concerned, but... this setup has the potential of taking it to another level altogether.

Yeah, and way more flexible. I rarely play different civs in Civ VI since they are kinda way too focused, but at the same the experience is not wildly different. Here, just looking at the different legacy bonuses make you want to "chart" different paths and synergies.

I remain a little dubious about the 'transcending' option, as very little information has come out about it so far, and it feels at this moment (IMO) as if it won't be very tempting to use, but if it does turn out to be of interest, it'll make those decisions so much more interesting and very the games even more. I'm very excited.

Yeah, mechanics-wise it's a bit odd, but if they really ramp up the fame gains they could work. In any case, it also opens the possibility for very "wacky" runs in which you might want to take Babylon to the modern era, or the Roman empire never "falling".

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I remain a little dubious about the 'transcending' option, as very little information has come out about it so far, and it feels at this moment (IMO) as if it won't be very tempting to use, but if it does turn out to be of interest, it'll make those decisions so much more interesting and very the games even more. I'm very excited.

From several clues, it appears that a Transcending Faction gets a major boost of Fame. The question is, of course, whether that will make up for missing out on 'goodies' like Emblematic Units and Quarters or bonuses available in later Factions.

I suspect a great deal of balancing of Numbers is still in progress to make this work the way they want it to.

I also suspect that the more Eras you Transcend, as in "The Roman Empire Never Falls" the more of a Fame boost you should get, as I would expect it to get harder and harder to stay competitive as you shepherd your Classical Faction further and further among other Factions enjoying Medieval, Early Modern, and later advantages.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I also suspect that the more Eras you Transcend, as in "The Roman Empire Never Falls" the more of a Fame boost you should get, as I would expect it to get harder and harder to stay competitive as you shepherd your Classical Faction further and further among other Factions enjoying Medieval, Early Modern, and later advantages.

Yes, the Fame Boost works like a Legacy Trait, so you can stack it. Taking Babylon into the Contemporary Era would net you five Fame boost Legacy traits... That's a lot of Fame for anything you do, but of course you may be at a disadvantage against others.

 

[tedhebert]

Yes, the Fame Boost works like a Legacy Trait, so you can stack it. Taking Babylon into the Contemporary Era would net you five Fame boost Legacy traits... That's a lot of Fame for anything you do, but of course you may be at a disadvantage against others.

If it really offers us a valid tactic or strategic decision to make, it will be fantastic. gain with pain is a completely valid option line

 

[FinalDoomsday]

while transcending early cultures might be risky I strongly suspect that transending your industrial or maybe early modern culture will be quite viable to get that late game fame boost unless contempoary cultures have some real game changing powers.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

while transcending early cultures might be risky I strongly suspect that transending your industrial or maybe early modern culture will be quite viable to get that late game fame boost unless contempoary cultures have some real game changing powers.

One thing that strikes me about the entire 'Fame Victory' mechanic and the way (as much as we know so far!) it's being implemented, with Fame per achievement in each Era and for 'famous' acts like building Wonders and for 'taking the hard road' by transcending and early Culture, is that the Late Game appears to be on track to be much, much more interesting than in 'normal' Historical 4X games.
If they can actually achieve that in the initial Game design, that in itself would be a Transcendent Game Design Wonder . . .

 

[Elhoim]

Yes, the Fame Boost works like a Legacy Trait, so you can stack it. Taking Babylon into the Contemporary Era would net you five Fame boost Legacy traits... That's a lot of Fame for anything you do, but of course you may be at a disadvantage against others.

That's very interesting... So potentially you could select an ancient one, then stay with the classical one for 3 eras, earning 2 "Fame boost legacy", then switch to a new civ in the Industrial era, which will have the fame boost from your transcendent time.

 

[Revanchist]

So what you’re saying is that you could have an ‘endless’ culture

 

[Siptah]

So what you’re saying is that you could have an ‘endless’ culture

Let‘s all rejoice that the name of the game is not endless culture.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Let‘s all rejoice that the name of the game is not endless culture.

Rather, let's all rejoice that the game appears to be trending away from the Endless Ennui of the Civ VI late game . . .

 

[grug]

I know this has been mentioned before in other threads, but I really hope there are some Industrial and especially Contemporary Era cultures with catch up mechanics to keep the late game competitive. Since the Legacy Traits for Contemporary cultures will only be in place for one era, I feel like they should be pretty powerful.

A Meiji Japan culture than could adopt techs from allied cultures, a Siam culture that could adopt civics from trading partners, a Brazil culture that could use undeveloped territories for tourism revenue, or a USSR that could steal techs would be cool traits to see. On the note of espionage, I also hope stealing techs isn't the primary focus of spying, at least until the contemporary era, and it is instead more about military, but that's a separate issue.

 

[ehecatzin]

I really love how in a way you can create your own Civ piece by piece. Instead of having 3-4 abilities front-loaded like in Civ, you pick 6 of them during the whole game, actually adapting to what's better on your current situation (or creating your own civ).

This so much, I've argued before that civs in Civ need way more customization, maybe letting you choose between diferent leaders/units/abilities, everytime you go up an era (and maybe special options for dark and golden.) Humankind srcatches that itch just right.