First Punic War Developement Thread

[-0blivion-]

My First Punic War scenario is progressing well, so i thought i would show you the work i had done so far. No units or buildings yet, so i still have some work to do. I have done all cities, resources, tech tree, map tweaking and roads/irrigation etc, however. Need to do the arrows on the tech tree though.

One thing i need to think about is the victory conditions though. I think i will do it by VPs, because i think it would be too difficult to win by conquest or domination in the 72 turns available. Furthermore, the whole point is to see if you can capture Rome as Carthage and Carthage as Rome. The other civilizations are there to harass you.

There are Five playable civs (not that three of them are a big part, but i don't see the point of unplayable civilizations). They are Rome, Carthage, Syracuse, Numidia and the Insubre Gauls (Gauls of North Italy).

Numidia did play a part in harassing Carthage late in the war, and Carthage had a sort of alliance with the Gauls, although it dissolved later in the war. Syracuse is a single city state that was at first an ally of Carthage, then pledged allegiance to Rome.

I have used the normal leaderheads for Syracuse (Greek), Carthage, Insubre Gauls (Celtic) and Rome. I couldn't find a Numidia leaderhead, so i used R8XFT's Moshoeshoe (cheers for that), because it looked generic enough to be a Numidian.

The Minimap

The Tech tree

Sicily

Sicily is too big for the map i am using, but it needs to be as it was one of the main areas of the war. Those are not the final tech tree arrows, they are just to show what leads to what. Spain is filled with Iberian tribes, and there are Illuryian (sp?) tribes in the correct place as well.

Units

• 
  *Different ships for Rome and Carthage
  *Poeni infantry
  *Elephants
  *Balaeric Slingers
  *Numidian Cavalry
  *Equites and a type of Carthaginian Cavalry
  *A hoplite of some kind and a Toxotes (Syracuse)
  *Iberian Infantry
  *Two types of Legion
  *Scutatio
  *Roman Army
  *Siege Tower

These are the units i will most probably use. Some are made already, and DPII is making the slinger, elephants and Numidian Cavalry. Credits to anyone whose units i eventually use.

I am happy with the range of buildings and wonders already created, so credits to anyone whose buildings i use as well.

One idea i have though of is to time it so that Rome finishes researching Naval Tactics in 261 BC, the year when Rome built a fleet, after supposedly using a washed up Carthaginian vessel. Hopefully i can time it right. Hopefully. From 264 BC until then, Carthage raided the Italian coast a lot. So i will try and simulate this by given the Carthaginian ships bombarding capabilities.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments?

 

[Kyriakos]

Nice idea The map looks a bit crowded though, and i think that it would be better if you used a map with the parts that are in play bigger, and not so many unused lands. But since you have already placed everything perhaps you arent looking for a new map now. Also at that time iirc some greek towns existed in south france, emporion and marseille (massalia). Also perhaps a greek town in iberia but i am not sure about that.

 

[-0blivion-]

I am slightly unhappy with the map, but it will be much better in the Second Punic War when Spain is more involved.

About the Greeks, i am unsure about putting them in, as they will have no role at all.

They will definetly be in the Second Punic War, as the city in Spain you mentioned (i think you mean Segesta) was conquered by Hannibal.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I had a long post, but I lost power in the house for about a quarter of a second for no reason at all

First off, consider changing the map (I believe there is a map that focuses more on the Italian region, which was where the main focus of the fighting was).

Techs:
They seem fine. Maybe more focus on the naval aspect (Corvus, etc)

Units:
Two types of Roman Galleys, regular and Corvus. Possibly consider a third (after the Romans gained an understanding of naval warfare and could compete with Carthage)
Carthage's Galleys should be better than Roman (unless you add a third type of Roman, than they should be equal)

Balaeric Slingers and Numidian Cavalry are fine. Maybe add Velites (Dom Pedro) for Rome. I'm not sure why there aren't any Numidian Mercenaries (call them Libyan Mercenaries, because that's what they are), but maybe that's what the Penoi Infantry is.

In the first Punic War, there would have been Liby-Phoenician Cavalry as well as spearman (I suppose they would be Peoni Cav and Spears, but weren't really from the city of Carthage herself).

Rome should have a big limit before having to pay for troops and probably should get a lot of Production, Carthage should get a lot of gold and dominate (initially) at sea. I think Syracuse could use more than one city.

I would make most VPs in Sicily, but some in Italy and Carthage.

That's all I can think of for now.

 

[-0blivion-]

First off, consider changing the map (I believe there is a map that focuses more on the Italian region, which was where the main focus of the fighting was).

I am slightly considering that - there is too much of Spain in this one. I already have this map so i know the baseline for cities, etc.

Techs:
They seem fine. Maybe more focus on the naval aspect (Corvus, etc)

I might think about that.

Units:
Two types of Roman Galleys, regular and Corvus. Possibly consider a third (after the Romans gained an understanding of naval warfare and could compete with Carthage)
Carthage's Galleys should be better than Roman (unless you add a third type of Roman, than they should be equal)

I reckon that Carthage's galleys should be better than Rome's, but Rome should have more of a production capability than Carthage.

Balaeric Slingers and Numidian Cavalry are fine. Maybe add Velites (Dom Pedro) for Rome. I'm not sure why there aren't any Numidian Mercenaries (call them Libyan Mercenaries, because that's what they are), but maybe that's what the Penoi Infantry is.

I meant to add Velites to that list, i downloaded them a couple of weeks ago. I think i probably will just change NumMercs to Poeni Infantry. They are basically the same.

In the first Punic War, there would have been Liby-Phoenician Cavalry as well as spearman (I suppose they would be Peoni Cav and Spears, but weren't really from the city of Carthage herself).

I do need a type of Phoenician cavalry, but i don't really know what to call it. I am tempted just to call it Round Shield Cavalry, or Long Shield Cavalry (ie, R:TW).

Rome should have a big limit before having to pay for troops and probably should get a lot of Production, Carthage should get a lot of gold and dominate (initially) at sea. I think Syracuse could use more than one city.

I agree on all points, but more cities for Syracuse may prove difficult.

I would make most VPs in Sicily, but some in Italy and Carthage.

Along the lines of what i was thinking.

 

[RedAlert]

If you do decide to use a new map, would it be just of sicily and including southern italy and the carthaginian heartland? (or something close to that)
If so, I could try making that for you, if you want...

 

[-0blivion-]

If you do decide to use a new map, would it be just of sicily and including southern italy and the carthaginian heartland? (or something close to that)
If so, I could try making that for you, if you want...

If you got the 'Too much of Italy' comment from the last post, sorry, that was meant to be 'Too much of Spain'. Edited now.

I would prefer a map to these sort of parameters - gets rid of a lot of Spain and allows a bigger focus on the real area of the war. Allows more space in Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia, and allows Malta and Lipara to be put in properly.
Spain starts at Carthago Nova, which i will give to Carthage. That would allow many more towns on Sicily (maybe made disproportinately large), which is what i really want.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok, i made this map, if you want it then i will post in the map threads for you This is a 106*120 map, with a lot of land for italy, sicily and carthage, so i think that it should be ok

 

[-0blivion-]

Did you just make that map in that hour just now?
Anyway, i like it
I will look over it in more detail tomorrow - then i can start adding resources, changing some terrain, and adding rivers.

I think this would be good for the scenario - gives much more depth and allowance for more island combat and more cities.

On another note - what do you think would be an appropriate turn number for this scenario?
It lasts 24 years and i had a prelimnary number of 72 turns, one turn every four months. Any comments on that?

 

[Kyriakos]

Not exactly, i have made a european map and just edited that part a bit, and used a fraction of the map. here is the url for dl: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=103663

best wishes for your scen

 

[Louis XXIV]

I do need a type of Phoenician cavalry, but i don't really know what to call it. I am tempted just to call it Round Shield Cavalry, or Long Shield Cavalry (ie, R:TW).

I'm not sure about the RTW names, why not just call it Punic Cavalry?

Also, the bulk of Carthaginian heavy infantry was Libyan spearman, not Phoenician citizen-spears, so I think the NumidMerc would work best as a Libyan Mercenary.

 

[-0blivion-]

Here is a bit of an update:

I have switched maps from this small one, to one provided by varwnos.
I have placed all cities on this new map - Sicily is much improved. Some digging found some old maps with an excellent representation of the different factions control in Sicily. Therefore, Syracuse has many more cities, as does Carthage on Sicily. Here is a zoomed out preview.

I have added arrows to the tech tree, and i am in the process of adding buildings. I have added some victory point locations, and i will be testing them out once i have added everything else.

Soon i will be adding resources, etc.
Then i will add units, then write the civpedia entries.

 

[Cuivienen]

One other possibility that may or may not be feasible would be the addition of the city of Massilia as a part of a larger "Greek culture" nation with the capital at Syracuse. This would give the Syracusans a slightly larger sphere of influence if you really want them to be playable. (However, I think that Syracuse, Gaul and Numidia should be unplayable, as none of them was a major player.)

An early Sicily would also have been much more heavily forested than it looks to be on that map.

 

[Gogf]

I see some RTW units names in here...

What will you use for Peoni Infantry? Also, I think Libyan Spearman are more time appropriate.

 

[Kyriakos]

Strategically it really looks a lot better

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think the map looks great. I used to have a map of Sicily, but I don't have it anymore, so, judging from my memory, that looks fantastic. One note, Sicily was the bread basket of the Roman Republic until Egypt was conquered, give it a lot of Wheat. Also, for gameplay reasons, consider giving more cities to Carthage (Syracuse is almost a one-and-done situation, the war will be fought with Carthage over Sicily).

Cuivienen, I'm not quite sure I know what you mean about Massina. I think it should be a Roman city because it was offered protection from the Roman protection (and its a lot easier to have a base of operations on Sicily than to have to take on).

 

[Kyriakos]

If you want one suggestion, Oblivion, although ofcourse it is your scen: from working on my own scen i realised that placing cities very close to each other can create difficulties, although with having powerful defense units those difficulties can be lessened. Note that if a series of cities are all 2 squares away from each other then if the attacking units are stronger all of the cities will collapse if the main battle is lost (ussually historical). Then you can have stronger defensive units in main cities, like Syracuse etc, to avoid a complete domino effect. Perhaps though in your scen this is ok, since at that time pretty much the powers are centrally run. For city-states though it wouldnt work.

 

[Cuivienen]

Cuivienen, I'm not quite sure I know what you mean about Massina. I think it should be a Roman city because it was offered protection from the Roman protection (and its a lot easier to have a base of operations on Sicily than to have to take on).

Massilia, not Messana. Massilia was a Greek colony in southern Gaul, and the city survives to this day as Marseille. I was only making the suggestion if Syracuse were to be playable. Otherwise, it isn't so important. (Although having it be an independent city-state would also make things more interesting.)

 

[Louis XXIV]

Woops, misread what you wrote. Not that it matters much, but Rise of Rome gave it to the Celts. If there was some kind of Greek city state civ (Ephyrus mostly), it would make sense to give it to them, but not really to Syracuse.

EDIT: One minor suggestion would be to make Carthage some light color (grey or powder blue) because it looks better

 

[Bóreas]

If you need some better tech pics i would be happy to provide you with some