Football Thread No. 9

[Takhisis]

Good Rangers fans are in the majority of course, but as always it's the prominent minority who shape opinion.

If you ever come to this wretched hive of scum and villainy before I leave it, I'll simply have to take you stadium-going.

btw I'm not Quackers.

 

[del62]

Rangers are hated because they have behaved appallingly to smaller clubs over the years, it's a build-up of slights and fan resentment. Most SPL boards wanted Rangers back in the league for reasons of avarice/financial management, but the fans of the smaller clubs rebelled and threatened in unprecedented numbers to boycott next season's games.

Fans know the finances will be damaged, but punishing Rangers makes this more than endurable. Rangers are the only club in Scotland whose fans sing offensive and derogatory songs at every opposition stadium, carry provocative flags and banners, and so on; they have proudly acted obnoxiously just for the sake of it (celebrating massacres, and even going so far as to embrace English national symbols simply because other Scottish fans take offence), and now they are paying the price. Celtic would probably have got straight back into the SPL, but not Rangers. It's a political lesson for anyone who thinks that treating your neighbours like crap is an acceptable permanent stance just because you've always gotten away with it.

Are you a Celtic fan?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Sorry T, corrected the post.

@Del62, definitely not!

 

[del62]

I am intrigued as to what English national symbols Rangers fans embrace.

Don't a minority of Celtic fans put up some offensive banners, I seem to remember there was a controversy surrounding remeberance day and pro IRA songs?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Celtic were a club founded to promote unity between Glasgow's Irish immigrants and the Scottish population. Rangers were founded by Highlanders with little ideological purpose. It wasn't until much later that Rangers and Celtic became THE clubs of Glasgow. In the 19th and early 20th centuries there was significant immigration from Ireland to Scotland, and the political conflict in Ireland spillled into ideological divisions among their descendents in Glasgow (Unionists versus Republians) and eventually became attached to the footbaling rivarly in Glasgow, the most entrenched protestant immigrants adopting Rangers and Catholic ones Celtic. Celtic were always open to all, but Rangers became defensive and exclusionary and the unwritten rule that no Catholic should play for Rangers was upheld until controversially broken by the signing of Mo Johnston from Nantes in 1989. Celtic have a pro-IRA element, and the club's hardcore fans still cherish the vanishing link with Ireland, but they don't have the nastiness that hardcore Rangers fans have.

Anyway, in answer to the other point, Rangers fans have typically carried Unionist banners such as the Ulster Banner and the Union Jack, and sung Unionist songs such as God Save the Queen, Billy Boys, and so on. But in the past few decades Rangers Irish unionism and pro-Britishism has been reinterpreted by both Rangers fans and their rivals as Scottish unionism and pro-Englishism; as a result Rangers fans often wear England football shirts and sing explicitly English songs (which GSTQ and Rule Britannia are technically not). So after the English rugby team adopted Swing Low in 1991, Rangers fans started singing it. If you go to a Rangers game (esp. if it's against Aberdeen or Dundee Utd) you will often hear them signing such songs and being booed, even when they sing songs which are technically "British" rather than English, and it is well known that the Rangers fans sing such songs just to annoy people.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, look at the two versions of Billy Boys listed by Wikipedia and contrast the peaceful one -which I've never heard- with the sectarian one. A good example (or symptom?) of what happened with the clubs' fans themselves.

 

[del62]

The England shirts probably are from when Gazza and Terry Buthcher played

shouldn't get upset about pro-englishness or swing low sweet chariot (are Aberdeen and Dundee fans really that bigoted, I doubt it more like pantomine booing), we English arent that bad, I am sure you get some Scottish flags at English Clubs. You even have an English club in your leagues.

 

[Takhisis]

You get some flags of either country at clubs of the other if fans are from there or live there or whatever. But many Rangers fans who've probably never even left whatever corner of Glasgow they live in just do it to mess with other people.

 

[MCdread]

On the now outdated debate of goal diff vs. head to head: it seems to me it's basically arbitrary. Head to head causes weird scenarios in 4 team groups in tournaments, but those problems are pretty much impossible to surface in a much longer league season. It's interesting that Northern Europe seems to prefer goal difference whereas Southern Europe is into head to head scores, but they're basically a tie breaker between 2 teams levelled on the only "natural" metric: points. There's a good argument to reward overall performance, in the form of goal difference, and an equally good argument to reward the team which was superior in direct confrontation.

esp. if it's against Aberdeen or Dundee Utd

Why is it especially directed at these clubs? Are their fans known for being particularly sympathetic to Scottish nationalism/independence/devolution? What about Dundee FC? (I guess they haven't been in the SPL in recent years anyway)

 

[Quackers]

Aight fellas, I was arguing in another forum about Ronaldo's "big" game performances. Well I disproved them by pointing out how CR7 managed to score goals against Barcalona in the Copa Del Rey, La Liga, ECL knock out stages and international matches (QF of the Euros for example). Apparently this wasn't enough. One poster said strikers should also be judged by how well they pressure defenders on the ball, how well they tackle and trackback.

What do you guys think? I think Ronaldo should be judged (in the big games) on the goals he scores and the goals he creates. I think it is a waste if Ronaldo is forced to pressure players, tackle and trackback. He needs to save his energy for attacking moves. So how do you determine how big players perform in big matches?

 

[Takhisis]

But Mourinho does waste him at times, according to your definition. Also, Ronaldo fecked up in the penalty shootout against Bayern.

He's a complete obnoxious moron, and he simply has to be the center of everything he's in, so… nah. Get another guy.

 

[Quackers]

Stop ever posting in response to me, or referring to me at all, your an idiot.
Moderator Action: There is no reason for insulting another member of this site. Please be more civil in your posting.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Takhisis]

You don't own this thread, or any other, and you don't have a right to insult other people, especially when they've already apologised to you.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Why is it especially directed at these clubs? Are their fans known for being particularly sympathetic to Scottish nationalism/independence/devolution? What about Dundee FC? (I guess they haven't been in the SPL in recent years anyway)

Not sure tbh. Dundee hardly ever play in the top league these days, but Dundee and Aberdeen and other places north of the Forth are quite distant from these sectarian traditions; they are also SNP voting cities, like the area north of the Forth in general, so maybe your suggestion is right ... areas with historic immigration from Protestant Ireland do tend to be much less nationalist in voting patterns. If you listen to the call-in shows, one of the things fans of "provincial" clubs complain about most is the poor "Scottishness" of the Old Firm. Probably also has something to do with the fact that Dundee Utd and Aberdeen are still thought of/think of themselves as rivals to the Old Firm.

 

[mitsho]

My personal opinion is that there's two types of forwards. There's those that make their goal no matter how the game goes. And that is valuable. And then there's the ones that get the ball away from the goal and help out back and work and bite, but don't necessarily score as often. That's valuable as well. And it of course depends a lot on the opposing team which one is better at the moment. As for Ronaldo, in the first games of the euro I had the impression that he was more of the second type, while with Real Madrid he's clearly the Diva. I mean, tell me another player of whom practically every football fan in Europe can simulate how he shoots a Freekick, legs apart and all

@Pangur Bán Btw. how was it decided that the second of the Second League last season plays now in the first league, and not the last of the premier league last season?

As for real footbal that is played, our league started last weekend with a lucky first win and this tuesday, there was already the next game in the CL qualifications. It's really headscratching why we have to start this early, shows how sucky the rest of the league is.

Results

Spoiler :

Skënderbeu Korçë Alb DVSC Debrecen Hun 1-0
NK Maribor Slo Zeljeznicar Sarajevo Bos
MSK Zilina Svk Hapoel Kiryat Shmona Isr 1-0
BATE Borisov Bls Vardar Skopje Mac
AEL Limassol Cyp Linfield Belfast Nir
Shamrock Rovers Irl Ekranas Panevezys Lit 0-0
Flora Tallinn Est FC Basel Sui 0-2
The New Saints Wal Helsingborg IF Swe 0-0
HJK Helsinki Fin KR Reykjavik Isl 7-0
Molde FK Nor FK Ventspils Lat
F91 Dudelange Lux FC Salzburg Aut 1-0
Slovan Liberec Cze Shakhtyor Karaganda Kaz 1-0
Ludogorets Razgrad Bul Dinamo Zagreb Cro
Neftchi Baku Azb FC Zestafoni Geo 3-0
Ulisses Yerevan Arm Sheriff Tiraspol Mol 0-1
Valletta FC Mlt Partizan Belgrade Srb 1-4
Buducnost Podgorica Mon Slask Wroclaw Pol

Only upset so far, Dudelange winning against Red Bull Salzburg at home, with a late goal, a nearly second goal and a red card for the Austrians in the last minutes or so. Serves them right, that's an unsympathetic club if there is one.

 

[Takhisis]

Not sure tbh. Dundee hardly ever play in the top league these days, but Dundee and Aberdeen and other places north of the Forth are quite distant from these sectarian traditions; they are also SNP voting cities, like the area north of the Forth in general, so maybe your suggestion is right ... areas with historic immigration from Protestant Ireland do tend to be much less nationalist in voting patterns. If you listen to the call-in shows, one of the things fans of "provincial" clubs complain about most is the poor "Scottishness" of the Old Firm. Probably also has something to do with the fact that Dundee Utd and Aberdeen are still thought of/think of themselves as rivals to the Old Firm.

Yes, when you see one half of the derby waving Irish flags and the other Union Jacks and English flags it's actually saddening. Many idiots would learn Irish Gaelic or Ulster-Scots to annoy the other flag but not scottish Gaelic or (Scottish-) Scots.

@Pangur Bán Btw. how was it decided that the second of the Second League last season plays now in the first league, and not the last of the premier league last season?

Because if you come last you should be relegated anyway, so you promote the next best team to keep balance.

Those results, are they first legs or aggregate scores?

 

[mitsho]

That's first legs. The empty games are tonight and the second games are next week. However, the draw for the second rounds is already this Friday.

Oh, and I do agree with the reasoning for why Dundee gets the place, just curious what the official stance was

 

[MCdread]

First of all Ronaldo doesn't play as striker.
I think Ronaldo generally performs in the big games, but in recent years his game has become very specialised: it's based on speed, power and shooting. Naturally he has less space and time to use this type of assets against teams like Barcelona and he's not the kind of player that transforms the player around him, so if his team is being dominated and can't get hold of the ball, he'll look like ****, just like his team mates. Nevertheless he has scored against Barcelona in most games recently.

As for his defensive performance, he doesn't do a lot. The lack of tracking back is a deliberate strategy by the coaches though. They want him free to do what he does best: counter attack vertically with speed and space. I remember one play in the Euros where Portugal lost the ball with both full backs high and out of position. The opponent counter attacks via the right hand side of Portugal's defence, and when they crossed it was Ronaldo who was defending the left hand side of Portugal inside his own box. He was in the wrong defensive position (cause he's not a defender I guess) but he realised there was no one else to cover and he ran 50 meters back.

That said, if he's often relieved of the job of having to come back and help the full back, he's still supposed to do some pressing at the other end of the pitch and he usually seems lazy and uninterested at that.

Anyway, the problem of Ronaldo is a simple one: Messi. There's no shame in being 2nd best, you're still better than everyone else on the planet. But I guess Ronaldo doesn't see it that way, and a lot of dumb journos and dumb fans don't see it either.

 

[Krill]

Looks like Rangers are pissed off that they won't get any compensation for their players...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18934111

 

[mitsho]

Any Austrians wanna comment?