Foreign occupation: safest and most precairous geographic & geopolotical positions?

[Lotus49]

Bearing in mind I'm mainly (but not exclusively) talking about early industrialization era to present...

Basically, the question being asked is: thoughout history, which major countries/nations/lands do you think were A) in the most precarious positions regarding being attacked/occupied/manipulated/taken advantage of by other powers, and B) which were in the stongest positions to hold their own both geographically & geopolitically.

Geographically... for example Japan, or Britian. Maybe Perisa, heck even China. But then again China also has a geopolitical advantage, discussed below. So, was anybody (foreign power) ever going to really conquer Japan? Doesn't seem likely. Also Britain... much is made of the 'Viking conquest', but in reality they just landed, pillaged, messed up & wandered around causing some disruption - then they more or less fizzled out and were taken down by local fighters & then assimilated. Not exactly some great, decisive conquest. Anyway, one would have to say a precarious position would be Germany/Prussia, for example. Lots of great potential there, but BLAST, the positioning totally sucks! Then there's the USA... which as things have historically worked out, is essentially a 'starting location' presented on a silver platter.

Geopolitically speaking, China has had a massive population for quite some time. For example almost 200 years ago they had nearly 1/2 a billion people, totally dwarfing all other nations. Nobody was really going to succeed invading China. In fact the greatest, most advanced power of the time (UK) had several armed altercations with China in the 19th century, and even though they could do some damage locally and cut a path through the country at will - there was no way they could really ever hold onto any territorial gains to speak of due to the sheer numbers of Chinese. Also, Russia falls into this category. Granted they're certainly accessible, but a large population combined with sheer size means that any would-be conquerer is going to have the problems... well, that we can see from multiple historical examples.

So anyway... who is unbeatable? Who never stood a chance? Discuss/contribute whatever comes to mind. Rank the major/notable world powers if you like. Because unlike Civ starting locations (for the most part), IRL it just wasn't fair at all! Who did well, despite the disadvatanges? Who totally screwed the pooch, in spite of their advantage(s)? Etc.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Anyways, you should bare in mind that most "countries" are themselves products of one or more regions conquering or amalgamating others; defining such zones in the first places is fairly arbitrary.

But to mention a few candidates, Tibet and Arabia are protected by harsh environment and climate to the extent that those regions were virtually unconquerable without modern technology. Madagascar was pretty invulnerable, as was Australia and New Zealand (the latter not even settled by humans until the late middle ages).

I wouldn't say Russia is a great example. Historically, if you ignore the non-Russian hinterland from which Russian people could extract tribute, the area under Russian civilization was prolly a little smaller than Spain until the late medieval/modern period. Russia didn't really have a large population in world terms ... it's population was lower than France's only two centuries ago. Consisting of strips of fertile land concentrated on a number of interconnected river systems, it was highly vulnerable to conquest from the steppe zones to the east and south, and the arable cultures to its west and immediate east; it was protected by the fact that it was mostly surrounded by (and itself surrounded) primitive Finnic, Permian and Samoyed forest cultures. It's greatest protection has been that and its unity which, despite much historical mythology, has existed pretty much continuously since the 10th century until now. It has however been conquered by the Mongols, and half conquered by the Lithuanians. It's current size is a result of its geographic position ... being the last European Christian urban civilization before the Ural mountains and the steppe and forest expanses of "Siberia"; it used common European technology to subdue that area, a process which for the most part - although beginning in the reign of Ivan IV - did not get going properly until the 18th century and is not even nearly complete today (in fact, it's gone into reverse).

England isn't a good candidate either; it was conquered 4 times in one single millennium, by the Romans, then the English themselves (invaders from Germany), the Vikings and then the Normans. It has been protected since my its monarchy and that monarchy's fleet, but in world terms it's never been much of an unconquerable place. For some peoples the fact it is largely surrounded by sea eased its conquest.

And remember, although political unity offers great protection if that protection holds, unity also allows any conquerer to "swallow everything with one bite", the fate of most established and developed civilizations at some stage in history. But in practice the areas most vulnerable are easy defined concentrations of farmland located next to many other or larger concentrated areas of farmland, or to highly militaristic semi-upland or steppe zones; in the circumstances where such latter areas get temporary or long lasting political unity, these concentrated areas of farmland are pretty much doomed unless they are particularly large or have developed appropriate technological advantages or cultural and social systems that enable them to resist.

 

[Mirc]

UK, Japan, New Zealand, Russia, Switzerland have very safe positions.
Germany, Belgium, Greece (and all the ancient Hellenistic world), even Romania, have really bad positions.

 

[cybrxkhan]

The hard-to-defeats:

Level 1: Ready to die?

- Mother Nature


Level 2: You might as well surrender

- China - too big, too many. You can attack them, weaken them, even technically conquer them, but when you do so, either: 1. You will BECOME them or 2. They'll kick you out, and its going to be very very painful.

- Vietnam - very small, very humble, but very crazy. China, Mongolia, France, America... come on, you don't want to go into hot steamy jungle and fight some madmen you cant even see!

- Japan - these guys fight to the death. Even if they werent stuck on an island, you still be pretty scared fighting these guys.


Level 3: Eh, you're not going to like the casualties.

- Switzerland - very nice little mountain wall already built

- Russia - in Soviet Russia, winter beat you.

- Mayans - historically, they held out against the Spanish for two centuries, and even had a somewhat sucessful half-century long rebellion later. the jungle is defender's paradise, definitely

- Tibet - until the PRC came along, who really wants to go up thousands of feet just to conquer Buddhist monks?

 

[alex994]

Level 2: You might as well surrender

- China - too big, too many. You can attack them, weaken them, even technically conquer them, but when you do so, either: 1. You will BECOME them or 2. They'll kick you out, and its going to be very very painful.

So true, I've heard someone say that the Mongolian and Manchu conquests only brought their homelands as dowries to become "married" to the greater Chinese Empire

 

[lovett]

- Switzerland - very nice little mountain wall already built

Id put Switzerland a bit higher up frankly.
Having three million people equipped, trained and available for military service has to count for something, right?
Not to mention mining all important tunels and bridges, and having roads available to turn into runways. Impregnable mountain redoubts high in the alps have a bit of detterence value too.

Makes Vietnam look like lichenstein

 

[cybrxkhan]

Makes Vietnam look like lichenstein

you've never been to Vietnam, have you?

 

[sydhe]

Germany and Poland both are highly vulnerable to invasion both from the east and west, and were often raided from the north as well. Russia also is very vulnerable to attack from most directions. (well, maybe not the Arctic); its major defense is sheer size which means invaders will still be there for the winter.

Japan's probably in the best position.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

England isn't a good candidate either; it was conquered 4 times in one single millennium, by the Romans, then the English themselves (invaders from Germany), the Vikings and then the Normans. It has been protected since my its monarchy and that monarchy's fleet, but in world terms it's never been much of an unconquerable place. For some peoples the fact it is largely surrounded by sea eased its conquest

That it got conquered four times in 1000 years seems to be more in spite of having an easily defensible position than anything. Of those four times, twice the conquerors were facing a number of independent tribes rather than a united foe and once was because the English faced two separate invasions within days of each other on opposite sides of the country. Since 1066, Britain has never truly been threatened.

 

[Arwon]

Well, the Spanish Armada got close.

Spain's geography has had interesting effects on its history. Sure, the Moors swept through most of Visigothic Hispania in a decade, but the Christians took 700 years to push them out again. I wouldn't say it was unconquerable, though, because the geography has also been a handicap to internal efforts at centralisation as well. Really, its fractured geography (lots of mountains and valleys interspersed with flat mesas) has made it resistant to both centralisation and foreign invasion for centuries.

 

[puglover]

Belgium has always been in a pretty bad place.

 

[aronnax]

Its time to play, Conquer that European Country! Geography!

Level 1 - Simple to take because of lack of any Geographic structure such as mountains or trees or is just very small.


Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Belarus
(Eastern)Poland
Finland
Ukraine
Moldova
The following above exist in the Great Eastern European Plain. The lack of mountains or heavy forest allows easy access into the country. Great for any German Blitkerg Attack or a French Cavalry push. Its also nice to note all these were part of Russia once.
San Marino
Holy See
Monaco
Luxembourg
These are small, nuff said

Level 2 - These while having many thick forests, mountains or a system of rivers to defend from arent too effective if the enemy decides to take a different path

Germany - Well protected by the Alps from the south however exposed to attack from the left and right as well as the north and a total sea blockade
Netherlands
Denmark
Belgium
France - While defended by the Alps and Pyreens in the West and south, it has been demostrated by WW1 and WW2 the best way into France is through Belgium
Hungary
Crezh Republic
Romainia - Its easier to attack it through Moldovia than the Capartian Mountains

Level 3 - This level is harder as the while can be easily invaded, cannot be easily conquered. The home team will be annoyingly well fortified in their mountains in other parts of the country and refuse to surrender before kicking you out.

Norway
France - WWI proves it without the mountains but trenches!
Portugal - The North is mountanious
Bulgaria
Slovakia - see portugal
Spain
Serbia

Level 4, time to pump the heat up, These countries are mountanious fortifications cept for a few plains. Its hard to get in, hard to get out and hard to fight in.

Italy - The Alps stop anything from getting and the mountains that run down the boot makes sure its impossible to take the country
Andorra
Liechestien
Macedonia
Greece
Croatia
Slovenia
Monterego
Albania
Austria
Swizterland
These Balkan states, swiss and austrian land are nothing but pure mountains. Their cities are built in the mountains, their people live in the mountains, their big anti tank guns starring at your army is fortified in the mountains

Level 5, Russia is the hardest state to invade, a combination of its sheer massive size, scorch earth and its winter maddness makes it the most annoying, hardest, most difficult country in Europe to sucessfully invade and control

 

[Mirc]

Romainia - Its easier to attack it through Moldovia than the Capartian Mountains

It is impossible to attack through the Carpathian mountains because they are not near any border.

The easiest way in is through Moldova and through the north-west of the country (through north-western Transylvania). The hardest is through the south (the Danube river is HUGE here).

 

[cybrxkhan]

Asian levels:

Level 1: Easy terrain, easy people, easy to run over...

- Hmm... no one here...


Level 2: Not so easy... this will require some practice!

- India - althuogh large, with tons of jungle, unless we're talking about modern india here, the number of petty little kingdoms makes it easier than it looks
- Central Asia (i.e. Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) - large steppes, but if you know how to handle nomads to a degree, this shouldn't be too hard
- Indonesia - okay... so just a bunch of islands, huh? The only problem here is just sailing to all of them.
- Khmer - lots of jungle, but not as hard as the infamous Vietnam.
- Thailand - same as Khmer
- Burma - same as Khmer


Level 3: Rough terrain, careful... you could die!

- Mongolia - this is Genghis Khan's people we're talking about here
- Korea - the terrain is somewhat hilly, but not too much. But the will of the people is what is going to get really tough
- Uighurstan (modern-day Xinjiang or Western China) - theres some serious desert here. keep water supplies up, and watch for bandits.


Level 4: This is a near suicide here. Terrain, size, and the will of the enemy are all important here.

- Tibet - the Himalayas. More mountains. Ridiculously cold. Plataeu of the world. Only easy part - they're all Buddhists.
- Mainland China - huge, large, tons of people united under the dragon, resources to spare. why don't you just defect?

Level 5: You don't want to try. You may win... but its not the kind of victory you want! Hard terrain, but even harder souls to fight against!

- Japan - you might as well suicide into them as well
- Vietnam - jungle isn't as bad as the insanity of the defenders - they've been practicing for about two millennia!

 

[Steph]

France - While defended by the Alps and Pyreens in the West and south, it has been demostrated by WW1 and WW2 the best way into France is through Belgium

Just for information, the moutains we have on the West are very flat, and they are called on Ocean.
The Alps are on the East, and only the South East. Then up north we ave the Rhine as natural border, and then we have Belgium

 

[Verbose]

Its time to play, Conquer that European Country! Geography!

Level 1 - Simple to take because of lack of any Geographic structure such as mountains or trees or is just very small.

[...]
Finland

Um, Finland is hardly "small" by European standards. Also, it's heavily forested, and what is not forest is an almost continuous system of lakes. Of course these freeze in winter and can be crossed, but then you have to contend with the winters around the Baltic, cold but humid, capable of killing Russians even in great numbers. It's also absolutely rotten tank-country, almost as bad as city fighting. I'd rate it a very tough nut to crack for geographical reasons.

And out of curiosity, where would you put Sweden, since it's missing from your list?

 

[Adler17]

Japan has an outstanding position as island. Any invasion there is very problematic. The US, too. Britain only if her fleet is able to protect her. Russia and the Hinterland are now a great power and difficult to invade. But not impossible. Spain has only one mountainious border to protect, Portugal is in no way able to threaten Spain as much. France has natural barriers towards Italy and Spain, although in both French forces invaded several times. Like Germany. And here we have one of the worst positions. Cought between France, Denmark, Sweden, Russia, Poland and once Austria and now Italy it was for centuries a ball in the game of the powers. Before it was a power but after the centralisation failed and the princes became too powerful the decline of power lead to several invasions. If strong expanding, if weak imploding. Additionally resources are rare in the centre of Europe. However this position is still dangerous. In the last 2 centuries Germany was invaded and occupied by France, then got rid about Nappy, was only united after three opponents of the unification were convinced to allow that, slipped into a world war, was consequently invaded by Belgish, Polish, French and Lithunian forces. After going into the next turn an Austrian lead it again into the catastrophe. It was again invaded and not before 1990 reunification happened. Today there are little problems with France, Britain, Italy and the US, but Russia will remain a threat, although only latent.
The very same could be said of Poland. If strong agressions were made against Germany and Russia, if weak it was invaded by them. So they asked the Teutonic Order for help to stop the Prussians raiding. After the Teutonic Order did that, new problems arose when Poland and Lithunia were united against the Teutonic Order. After the annexion of Western Prussia, East Prussia, or better the Duchy of Prussia, became a fief. Then the Polish power became less and less and it was departed 3 times. Only to be recreated in 1916. But soon switching the sides and attacking Germany, Lithunia and Russia. Occupied by Germany and Russia again, it was again able to regain independence and invading Germany.
Vietnam is really hard to crack. The French never truly ruled it and were driven away. The US failed as well as the Chinese.

Adler

 

[cybrxkhan]

Vietnam is really hard to crack. The French never truly ruled it and were driven away. The US failed as well as the Chinese.

Don't forget the Mongols! We like to brag about that too! And the Chinese were the only sucessful ones, but sort of - one invasion worked, then they faced rebellion after rebellion, and then after independence, they tried invading something like once each century. Last time was 25 years ago or something.

 

[aronnax]

Just for information, the moutains we have on the West are very flat, and they are called on Ocean.
The Alps are on the East, and only the South East. Then up north we ave the Rhine as natural border, and then we have Belgium

Whoops

Um, Finland is hardly "small" by European standards. Also, it's heavily forested, and what is not forest is an almost continuous system of lakes. Of course these freeze in winter and can be crossed, but then you have to contend with the winters around the Baltic, cold but humid, capable of killing Russians even in great numbers. It's also absolutely rotten tank-country, almost as bad as city fighting. I'd rate it a very tough nut to crack for geographical reasons.

And out of curiosity, where would you put Sweden, since it's missing from your list?

I have no idea in fact, thats why I didnt put it. Im not sure about Swedens Geography much but all I know they have lots of lakes

 

[Mirc]

I have no idea in fact, thats why I didnt put it. Im not sure about Swedens Geography much but all I know they have lots of lakes

I think you're confusing Sweden with Finland here.