Foreign Policy: Spanish Apolyton

[talonschild]

the first team you meet becomes your best buddy, just as the time goes if nothing serious happens to ruin your relations.

Glad we got three of those. Especially the three with powerful early UUs. Keeps our neck protected (we hope), and we can outpace at least two with ease. As far as diplomatic situations go, we're in a pretty good one.

Now if only Spanish Apolyton wouldn't refuse to play by our rules...

 

[Caledorn]

We have received a new response from them, and I have to admit that it worries me. The reinforce their disinterest in any form of NAP, and they state outright that we must defend our cities, which is easily read as "If we see that your cities are lightly defended, we intend to attack you"..

 

[2metraninja]

LOL, I can barely understand anything.

We must be careful with these guys.

Anyway, all we need is to connect the copper and keep forewarning net. We have NAPs with the rest of our neighbors, so we have to worry only for defending from Zulu. Impis are great, but we wont leave ourselves to be caught offguard.

Further more, they ask for a screenshot of our desired settling location. First of all, why would they ask for it if they dont promise to not attack us, and second, exchanging screenshots is not allowed before map trading

 

[2metraninja]

btw, the ENG version is direct google-translate from the Spanish version.

I only hope Youssarian can see what these guys actually are saying to us when reading the original.

 

[2metraninja]

Cal, do you think it is good idea I to contact Magno and ask him for clarification in less formal way than exchanging official notes between the teams diplomats?

 

[Aivoturso]

With that approach, they may find it difficult to make friends. If we want to play along with them, I recon befriending them could be rather easy. If not, they can also serve as rather convenient common enemies

Getting into the details of the agreement correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the agreement imply that:
1) Every city pick results in 15 turns of effective peace as Spanish team seems to consider declaring after city pick not in line with the agreement.
2) Either team can build cities anywhere at any time, except for an off limits area.

This might not be such a bad agreement in the end. We just need to make sure we have credible defence in our cities (which we should do anyway).

BTW, we could use this agreement to our advantage. We could use our next settler to build a city on copper and at the same time reserve the second gold city.

 

[2metraninja]

With that approach, they may find it difficult to make friends. If we want to play along with them, I recon befriending them could be rather easy. If not, they can also serve as rather convenient common enemies

Very good assessment.

1) Every city pick results in 15 turns of effective peace as Spanish team seems to consider declaring after city pick not in line with the agreement.

Interesting where you saw this, as I though they avoid setting hard-date NAPs as much as they can.

This might not be such a bad agreement in the end. We just need to make sure we have credible defence in our cities (which we should do anyway).

Indeed. We handle them with care and we are good.

BTW, we could use this agreement to our advantage. We could use our next settler to build a city on copper and at the same time reserve the second gold city.

Was thinking the same. We can whip Indira for the copper settler Yes, it might hurt a bit, but only temporarily, will go in details a bit later. If we settle the copper city first, we (obviously) connect the copper, so we can build axes. Also if we choose to go Mono, the second gold city could become the holly city and save us the need of building monument and will time just OK with when we would want to build cottages on these flood plains after the pigs and the gold tiles are improved and worked.

 

[YossarianLives]

Still catching up on the posts, but here's my translation of the Spanish message:

Cool!

We truly do feel that these types of agreements are the kind that allow a real trust to build amongst neighbors, instead of strict NAPs that only build mistrust until the expiration of the agreement.

Your comments are correct, ok, that you guys can reserve a spot anywhere you want, but have no obligation to do so. So if you want to reserve a site on the other side of our borders...well you can do that, but it doesn't make sense so we wouldn't settle a city on the other side of the world.
In regards to declaring war, well one can't consider a DOW as something that respects the reserved right to settle a city...so in our consideration it would not be respectful of the agreement, at least during those reserved turns. But understand that this is not a NAP, so you should take proper precautions to defend your cities as best as you see fit.

So, whenever you find a good time, let us know where you plan to settle a city, showing us with a screenshot or a description of the reserved area.

Here's the Spanish original.

Spoiler :

cool!

Realmente creemos que estos tipos de acuerdos son los que permiten crear real confianza entre vecinos y no estrictos naps que lo único que hacen es acumular desconfianza hacia el fin del plazo.

Sus comentarios son correctos, vamos, que uds pueden reservar donde quieran pero no tienen la obligación de hacerlo. Por lo que si quieren reservar un sitio que esta del otro lado de nuestra zona de fronteras.. pues pueden hacerlo, no tiene sentido pues nosotros no fundaremos una ciudad del otro lado del mundo.
Respecto a la declaración de guerra, pues no podría calificar una declaración de guerra como algo que respete el derecho reservado de fundar una ciudad... por lo que entendemos que al menos durante esos turnos no seria respetuoso del acuerdo. Pero entiendase que esto no es un nap, por lo que deberían tomar sus medidas para defender sus ciudades como mejor lo entiendan.

Entonces, cuando uds lo consideren oportuno nos avisan donde tengan planificado fundar una ciudad indicándonos con una captura de pantalla o una descripción de la casilla reservada.

 

[talonschild]

Well and good. Should we remind them that screenshots are not allowed right now?

I also am uncomfortable with the phrase "we would not consider [declaring war to capture a new city] respectful of the agreement within those 15 turns". So afterward LOOK OUT, is the subtext I'm reading.

 

[2metraninja]

Still catching up on the posts, but here's my translation of the Spanish message:

Aaaahhh, much much better and sounds reasonable this time. Thanks a lot, Yossa.

So, after all they are repeating what I though about this kind of agreement - you can settle wherever you like, but it is up to you to choose wisely where to settle to not irritate your neighbor and make him take harsh measures (being they settling provocative to you too or simply declaring war to remove an offending city).

Not being a NAP is not a perfect solution for us, but at least they say they have a good will to respect the safety of properly announced and planted city.

As I read it they say: feel free to behave as you wish and if we like your actions, we wont hurt you, but be aware that if you challenge us, we will attack you. Not that bad. Fair enough I can say.

 

[2metraninja]

After all, I hope that Spaniards have the other team they met closer to them and that they are not that favorable to the unclear terms for Spanish peace and the AGG/CHA Zulu directs their aggressiveness their way and not ours. No one chooses AGG/CHA Zulu if he dont intend early war.

 

[YossarianLives]

We should probably get a draft response together. I think a short message affirming the deal again, and perhaps giving a rough idea of our next city location would be good. Something like "On our side of the mountain range, south of your Gold city. This city will be claiming our own Gold resource."

It's probably a good thing this city is coming after our Copper city, as we'll want to get an Axe here ASAP. Hopefully, the new team the Spanish have met won't be so diplomatic in their response to this unusual proposal, and the Impis will focus elsewhere.

 

[2metraninja]

Something like "On our side of the mountain range, south of your Gold city. This city will be claiming our own Gold resource."

Agree on that.

I asked, but did not got an answer - is it good idea to contact Magno and in less formal talk to clarify how they see and feel about this whole 15-turns-declaration approach?

 

[YossarianLives]

I think it's always a good idea to have open, informal conversations going to build rapport and trust, so I say go for it. It will make it harder for them to sneak an attack against us if we're in constant communication with them.

 

[Caledorn]

Agree on that.

I asked, but did not got an answer - is it good idea to contact Magno and in less formal talk to clarify how they see and feel about this whole 15-turns-declaration approach?

I completely missed your first post with this question.. Sorry!

Yes, I think that is a good idea, but the language barrier may be an issue there. When we discussed aspects of APTMod, there were several instances where understanding one another was challenging. Now, we *did* understand one another (as far as I can tell from my side at least.. it's difficult to know as sometimes people give the impression they understand, because they wish to be polite - and I don't know if Magno ever did that), but it may be an idea to let someone who understands written Spanish do it?

 

[YossarianLives]

If you want to include my email in the next message, I'm ok with that. It's vhinderl at gmail. I'm a stranger to them, though, and they know you and 2metra, so they might be more comfortable with you two.

 

[YossarianLives]

So, how about this for an initial draft message to the Spanish:

We apologize for the delay in our response. If you ever need to reach us quickly, please feel free to chat with 2metraninja at _____, or our Spanish speaker, YossarianLives, on gchat at vhinderl. They can get messages to our team and get back to you with quick responses when needed.

Thank you for the clarifications on our agreement, we can agree with everything you wrote. We hope this is the foundation of a strong and lasting friendship.

We appreciate getting first choice in our agreement. We would like to reserve the Floodplains tile 4 east and 2 south from your Gold. The city we plan on settling in this area will claim our own Gold resource.

We look forward to hearing back from you.

Caledorn for Team CFC

Here's a picture of the area, with the reserved area marked:

Spoiler :

The agreement says we get to reserve a tile, "and the 3 squares round" it. This gives us our planned Gold city, and also prevents them from settling anywhere near that vicinity before we get our city planted.

 

[Caledorn]

That is an excellent draft, Yossarian. Thank you for saving me the time to write an initial draft I will only change the part where you mention 2metra, and replace with myself, as I am the ambassador to them - so it's more natural that they can contact me rather than 2metra.

The current draft

 

[2metraninja]

It is not good we to say "We want to reserve the Floodplains tile 4 east and 2 south from your Gold" as it will sound to them like we want to settle there. This will make them mad I can guess. Cant we say where actually we want to settle? 6 tiles east and 2 tiles south of their gold sounds way less dangerous and intrusive. 4 tiles from their gold means they cannot plant another city in our direction. I would be mad if someone plants a city which prevents me to put at least 2 cities in that direction from my capitol.

There was a message draft a bit earlier where someone said something about "our side of the mountains" which is very good formulae in my opinion, we should put it forward somehow

 

[Aivoturso]

I agree with 2metra. Reserving area blocking them unnecessarily is like temporarily pink dotting them. Let's reserve the plot we actually plan to settle.