Foundation and Empire

[Benginal]

I'm interested to see if your training wheels strategy will call for a settler after this third warrior or a worker. I think settler might be more in line with what current training wheels strategies suggest. But I've become more and more inclined to go two workers before my first settler. This allows for more improved tiles which, especially given the emphasis put on worker techs, makes sense. Also relevant is the problem many rookies have of not building enough workers. Getting used to the idea of building lots of them probably couldn't hurt.

How do you plan on teaching slavery? I think using slavery to its potential is far above a noble requirement. But, on the other hand, many of the younger players don't use slavery nearly enough. The rules of thumb I first used, and still do use to a large extent (for better or worse) are:

• Do whip workers for two-pop. This is usually not hard to micromanage. Getting maximum overflow is, but staying under 30 hammers in one turn is usually not hard to do.
• Don't whip away hammer tiles that provide food: things like cows, horses, and grassland hills.
• Don't whip when you have unhappiness from the previous whip. (obviously adjustable later, but could serve to prevent over-whipping).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

How do you plan on teaching slavery? I think using slavery to its potential is far above a noble requirement.

Slavery is a big part of "food is life", it's a huge idea, it can really accelerate your production....

And then I find that, as I'm trying to play through these things, I'm giving it less thought than city specialization (which is definitely off the map). It's been roughly on par with the amount of attention I give to promotions for the warriors that are wandering around

That feels right to me - at this level, it's not so much a strategic topic as it is a technique. Part of city management I think - growth throttling, and the change over between horizontal in vertical. Or maybe just a discussion on growth mitigation.

 

[learner gamer]

Looks fine IMHO. On the basis of “that which can wait, must wait”, you could argue TW before mysticism, especially if going 2nd worker before settler. Having grown the capital and gotten access to axes for defense though, the obvious principle is now to expand – and look at techs which will (i) connect and help new cities (ie. TW for roads and mysticism for border pops) and (ii) fund the expansion (ie. pottery and writing).

Can go worker or settler next IMHO. Certainly, with the capital at pop 3 or 4 (depending on when the warrior finishes), the capital’s now working its special / best tiles, so it’s time to found a new city. I guess the key issue is whether it’s worth running the risk of losing what looks like quite a nice city site, to get a road built to the city beforehand. At noble, you’ve probably got time to build the second worker and then the settler, but you’re probably right Benginal, settler first – on the basis that we don’t want to run the risk of losing the city site – is probably the way to go. Agree it will be interesting to see what VoU does. Presumably, going settler next means going worker > warrior (or axe) after the settler, so a road can be built to connect the cities and the warrior can protect the worker. Again, the key IMHO is simply that there is a plan, a reason for each of the builds.

Re: slavery. In the spirit of keeping it simple, I think whether you whip depends on:
(i) whether you need to accelerate production (eg. of military units when preparing for war or rushing to grab a hotly contested city site) and / or
(ii) if you want to stay under the happy cap;
more than you want
(iii) the tiles you whip away (so you need to consider the quality of the tiles you’re losing);
bearing in mind
(iv) how long it will take your city to grow back on to the tiles you whip away.

I must admit that using this simple framework has seen me justify decisions to avoid whipping for prolonged periods during a game on the one hand, to stacking whip (and draft) anger on the other.

At this stage, the most obvious application I can see would be to 2 pop whip the worker that follows the settler (or vice versa), with overflow going into the military unit to protect the worker, so the unit protecting the worker is built faster. Then again, I wouldn’t have a problem with a noble civver saying I’ll avoid the whip, produce settler > worker > warrior (or axe) > worker > warrior (or axe), the idea being that the first worker in this chain roads in city #2, the 1st warrior (or axe) protects the worker and the last worker mines a hill or puts down a cottage, whilst the city grows again whilst producing the 2nd warrior or axe (which is used for fogbusting). Again, the key IMHO is for the noble player to have a plan.

As an aside VoU, how do Mansa’s EP compare with yours?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As an aside VoU, how do Mansa’s EP compare with yours?

Given the theme - do you think I'm paying any attention at all to EP? Really?

Looks fine IMHO. On the basis of “that which can wait, must wait”, you could argue TW before mysticism, especially if going 2nd worker before settler.

It's a weird time in tech, primarily because there's no urgency, but not a lot in the way of alternatives either.

 

[Benginal]

Given the theme - do you think I'm paying any attention at all to EP? Really?

. Espionage might not even be a deity level tactic. I've seen it used sometimes to great effect, most recently by AbsoluteZero in his Kossin shadow. But I play pretty much without it and do alright up to immortal.

It's a weird time in tech, primarily because there's no urgency, but not a lot in the way of alternatives either.

I suppose turning off the slider, waiting for your first great scientist to build an academy, and then resizing up the tech situation is not going to be simple enough, .

In all seriousness I think that in terms of tech, nobles have one simple and usually decent option: Alphabet -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service. All great techs that help an empire in simple and obvious ways.

 

[ecuwins]

The problem I find with "bee-lining" Alpha on Noble is that the AIs don't have anything good to trade(maybe IW, but that's usually about it). I typically take the Math route to Currency and go from there. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The problem I find with "bee-lining" Alpha on Noble is that the AIs don't have anything good to trade

That, and you end up haggling with dice. Yay.

I got soured on the whole tech trading thing back during Adventure 4. When the smoke had cleared, I found Sirian's arguments to be pretty compelling.

Really, the only supporting argument I'll make for Alphabet is that it allows you to compare your research to that of the AI.

 

[coanda]

. Espionage might not even be a deity level tactic. I've seen it used sometimes to great effect, most recently by AbsoluteZero in his Kossin shadow. But I play pretty much without it and do alright up to immortal.



I suppose turning off the slider, waiting for your first great scientist to build an academy, and then resizing up the tech situation is not going to be simple enough, .

In all seriousness I think that in terms of tech, nobles have one simple and usually decent option: Alphabet -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service. All great techs that help an empire in simple and obvious ways.

Espionage is a very weird side-game in Civ4. I think it's mostly that it's just so weak in the Ancient and Classical ages, and it's not until the Industrial age that espionage starts to really shine - which means you can safely ignore it and 90% of the time the game will be decided before it could have helped much anyways.

Regarding your tech pattern, I'd absolutely agree with the first half: Alphabet -> Currency is a very simple, obvious, generic, and effective tech path. But I'd probably say follow with CoL -> CS if you're planning on peace; Construction if you're planning on war. (Unless that's too complicated? )

 

[Benginal]

The problem I find with "bee-lining" Alpha on Noble is that the AIs don't have anything good to trade(maybe IW, but that's usually about it). I typically take the Math route to Currency and go from there. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

I don't think what I'm suggesting is a beeline. We're still getting all the other techs that VoU said to get first before alphabet.

Regarding your tech pattern, I'd absolutely agree with the first half: Alphabet -> Currency is a very simple, obvious, generic, and effective tech path. But I'd probably say follow with CoL -> CS if you're planning on peace; Construction if you're planning on war. (Unless that's too complicated? )

Good amendment. Maths -> Construction -> HBR -> Archery is another viable path, the WAR path. .

 

[ecuwins]

^ I meant bee-lining Alpha once the requisite worker techs are finished.

Bee-lining it straight up is even worse.

 

[Benginal]

When I use the word bee-lining I'm suggesting that I go straight for a tech passing up other technologies I would usually get before it. In this case, if we've been following VoU's advice we already have:

Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Writing, the Wheel, and Pottery.

This leaves us with the following options:

Bad Ideas
Aesthetics - For trading with noble AIs? For building the Parthenon?
Horseback Riding - Expensive.
Masonry - For walls to protect you from the barbs?
Metal Casting - Really expensive.

Alright Ideas
Sailing - If we have a lot of sea tiles or a far away neighbor on the same continent with coastal cities then go for it.
Mysticism - Border pops are good and monuments are a pretty cheap way to do it.
Math - Chops are good. And it's a good prereq tech.
Archery - Archers make TMIT feel safe.
Iron Working - Reveals Iron which is hopefully in a fat cross somewhere and enables jungle chopping.

Best Idea
Alphabet - Can trade for Sailing, Mysticism, Archery (probably not even using alphabet but writing instead) and later Iron Working. A good prereq tech.

So Alphabet is the best next technology as it will let us trade for all the alright ideas and open up some good new technologies. Also, we've already got all the prereqs we need for it so you can hardly call it a bee-line if it's already available.

 

[Amao]

When I use the word bee-lining I'm suggesting that I go straight for a tech passing up other technologies I would usually get before it. In this case, if we've been following VoU's advice we already have:

Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Writing, the Wheel, and Pottery.

This leaves us with the following options:

Bad Ideas
Aesthetics - For trading with noble AIs? For building the Parthenon?
Horseback Riding - Expensive.
Masonry - For walls to protect you from the barbs?
Metal Casting - Really expensive.

Alright Ideas
Sailing - If we have a lot of sea tiles or a far away neighbor on the same continent with coastal cities then go for it.
Mysticism - Border pops are good and monuments are a pretty cheap way to do it.
Math - Chops are good. And it's a good prereq tech.
Archery - Archers make TMIT feel safe.
Iron Working - Reveals Iron which is hopefully in a fat cross somewhere and enables jungle chopping.

Best Idea
Alphabet - Can trade for Sailing, Mysticism, Archery (probably not even using alphabet but writing instead) and later Iron Working. A good prereq tech.

So Alphabet is the best next technology as it will let us trade for all the alright ideas and open up some good new technologies. Also, we've already got all the prereqs we need for it so you can hardly call it a bee-line if it's already available.

On this level, if you are not planning to rush, beeline Civil Service is a preferred path. Tech trading can wait after that's done.

 

[Benginal]

On this level, if you are not planning to rush, beeline Civil Service is a preferred path. Tech trading can wait after that's done.

I haven't played noble in a long time so I'm not that familiar with what trades are available. But my original point a few posts back was that a civil service beeline going through alphabet was a good idea. It was pointed out that going through maths was another good option. Either way though, a Civil Service beeline is my recommended strategy. I just got a little side-tracked, .

 

[vranasm]

I haven't played noble in a long time so I'm not that familiar with what trades are available. But my original point a few posts back was that a civil service beeline going through alphabet was a good idea. It was pointed out that going through maths was another good option. Either way though, a Civil Service beeline is my recommended strategy. I just got a little side-tracked, .

for CS you need math, so math->cur->col->CS can be definitely preferable.

 

[coanda]

Having reflected on it more carefully, I think the simplest generic tech advice would be:

Math -> Construction if you're planning war. (In a glaring oversight, I forgot earlier that Math is the only prereq for Construction earlier. Oops! )
Alphabet -> Currency -> CoL -> CS if you're planning peace.

Neither Math nor Alphabet is going to be particularly high priorities on Noble. If you're going for Construction you have no choice of which you get; if you're going for CS then you don't want to waste time researching both yourself... but odds are that getting Alphabet and making some tech trades will speed up the overall game tech rate and let you get Math in trade reasonably soon thereafter.

Edit: And then I forget that CS also requires Math. I don't know what the tech rate is like on Noble - can you rely on picking up Math in trade by the time you've finished researching CoL? If not, I guess you have to go Math -> Currency -> CoL -> CS and hope someone else hurries along to Alphabet and will trade it to you.

 

[PeterWolf]

I haven't played noble in a long time so I'm not that familiar with what trades are available. But my original point a few posts back was that a civil service beeline going through alphabet was a good idea. It was pointed out that going through maths was another good option. Either way though, a Civil Service beeline is my recommended strategy. I just got a little side-tracked, .

I play Noble, and at this point I typically go Math instead of Alphabet because it's slightly cheaper, enables Construction (which is the path I prefer, but you could also go Currency) and efficient chopping.

Depending on the opponents, Alphabet might be a better choice (if there are many FIN AIs around), as long as you can be sure the AIs will have decent techs to trade for.

You could even go Aesthetics on Noble... it's not hard to get the Great Library, even without Marble, although you have to sacrifice a lot of forests for it. Bring in National Epic later. But that's usually overkill.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That, and you end up haggling with dice. Yay.

I got soured on the whole tech trading thing back during Adventure 4. When the smoke had cleared, I found Sirian's arguments to be pretty compelling.

Really, the only supporting argument I'll make for Alphabet is that it allows you to compare your research to that of the AI.

It's also one of only 3 techs that allow a direct -----> wealth/research/culture conversion. Currency is the better tech of these, but it takes longer to reach. It also opens up espionage and all of its potential abuses (and there are many) While the utility of this on noble is questionable, alpha is a powerful powerful tech.

I agree on tech trades by the way. IMO they somewhat ruin civ IV and the RA mechanic in V is just as bad; completely dominating and in some cases luck-based modifiers to empire tech rates.

 

[coanda]

I agree on tech trades by the way. IMO they somewhat ruin civ IV and the RA mechanic in V is just as bad; completely dominating and in some cases luck-based modifiers to empire tech rates.

To play 's advocate... tech trading is one of the few features of Civ4 which is rubber-banding instead of snowballing (especially in multiplayer). The problem really lies with the AI, which is terrible at judging when a tech trade is worth accepting. To be fair to the developers, that's a very complicated assessment to make, and I don't think I've seen any game AI which does a really good job at it. But it means it's a huge weak-spot for the AI; as you go up in difficulty levels it becomes more and more critical that the human player exploit weaknesses like that one in order to stay competitive with the absurd bonuses the AI starts getting - which is not necessarily smart play so much as it is cheesy play, but it's undeniably necessary as well.

 

[Um the Muse]

To play 's advocate... tech trading is one of the few features of Civ4 which is rubber-banding instead of snowballing (especially in multiplayer). The problem really lies with the AI, which is terrible at judging when a tech trade is worth accepting. To be fair to the developers, that's a very complicated assessment to make, and I don't think I've seen any game AI which does a really good job at it. But it means it's a huge weak-spot for the AI; as you go up in difficulty levels it becomes more and more critical that the human player exploit weaknesses like that one in order to stay competitive with the absurd bonuses the AI starts getting - which is not necessarily smart play so much as it is cheesy play, but it's undeniably necessary as well.

As I understand it, they seem to value techs right--on a marginal basis. It's like they can't target techs, they just go for the best immediate choice. If there was a way to get players to not know the tech tree, that's how we would behave, too.

Given that, I think their trades are pretty much right on. The only other thing is that there's no real negotiations (they use their attitude toward the player/other civ as a proxy).

According to economics, a monopoly should be worth twice as much as perfect competition.

The "brokeness" is from being able to trade at no cost. The developers decided on using a quota instead (maximum number of trades).

 

[yatta77]

The problem really lies with the AI, which is terrible at judging when a tech trade is worth accepting. To be fair to the developers, that's a very complicated assessment to make, and I don't think I've seen any game AI which does a really good job at it. But it means it's a huge weak-spot for the AI; as you go up in difficulty levels it becomes more and more critical that the human player exploit weaknesses like that one in order to stay competitive with the absurd bonuses the AI starts getting - which is not necessarily smart play so much as it is cheesy play, but it's undeniably necessary as well.

Yes! I 100% agree on this.
A couple of good Technology Trades can really fix up a game bad played.
That's why to consider myself good enough to compete on a level, I have to win at least one game by Space Race (on that level) setting everything else normal BUT setting OFF all the following options: (a) Huts, (b) Events, and (c) Technology Trading. The first two were already recently discussed in another thread, I'm glad that someone is pointing out this other subject is this thread.
I hope that this post makes sense in English, it is not my first language.
Sorry about that.
Greetings.
yatta.