France meddling in Greek politics

[onedreamer]

@onedreamer:
I can't follow you on the left/right wing distinction. Italy got in trouble under a long era of right wing governments, Greece's last was left wing (not to say their right wing predecessors didn't make the same mistakes). The "EU technocracy" forced both out of responsibility. Can't really see a pattern there.

First of all Italy didn't get in trouble by a long era of right wing governments especially because there isn't a long era of right wing governments in Italy since after Fascism. I know how much biased are German Mass Media towards Italy so I'll give you credits this time, but perhaps if you just opened Wikipedia you'd realize how wrong is this statement.
Back to the point, my point is exactly that the so called left-wing parties (and hence governments) don't exist anymore. If the former government of Greece was left-wing in their program I am the Pope. All that made it a left wing gov. was where they sat in the Parliament, much the same as in Italy.
There is no intention to save Greece or Italy from the debt crisis, if there was there would be a simple solution which is that to cancel interests on debts.

75% or so of the current world "currency" are interests and their derivations on debts. The amount of "wealth" produced yearly by this virtual currency is more than 10 times the amount of real wealth the world produces and the first grows exponentially while the second linearly, so there is no way that these debts will ever be paid back. The powers that govern the world have no intention to let their fat cow of interests go. They know it's going to fail sometimes soon but they are going to squeeze every drop of milk till the end. This system worked until when there was growth, now with the crisis and the fact that the middle class has gotten poorer and poorer there are less people who can indebt themselves and the system is crumbling. If Italy and Greece would default now it would be all the better on the long run for them, it would be a harsh fall but then they would have a chance to stand up again. Instead they are going to be killed slowly. They will take everything they can before letting us go bunkrupt, much as it happens when a common person goes broken. I think people are going to slowly realize what's going on and French already have understood who is next in line, that's why they're pooing in their pants and trying to make sure Italy and Greece don't default just yet. But it is only a matter of time if we don't stand up and don't support the movements that are finally growing against these modern lords. In the end of '700 people rebelled to estates yield, today we must rebel to bond and financial yields.

 

[kronic]

Please don't, we need to import cheap energy from somewhere!

No, they'll have to import electricity from us like they do every year, esp. in the winter.

 

[-Perceval-]

Who cares about what the French think? They are irrelevant.
I've learnt it here on CFC ten years ago.


----
Well, more seriously speaking, the French Socialist Party lives on another galaxy. They have no clue about how serious is the crisis.

They don't even realize that France is in very serious danger. They believe we can continue business as usual... as such, they whine about another far-right party getting in a governmental coalition without thinking about how marginal is such a complain considering the serious need of national unity in Greece. I deplore it, even if I'm unfortunately not surprized.

Just to give you some clues about how sick is the Socialist Party, here's their program for the upcoming election:
- Getting back to retirement at 60 years old
- Hiring 300,000 people in the public administration
- Hiring 60,000 teachers more in the education
- Getting rid of nuclear power in France (considering that nuclear power represents 80% of French electricity)

They haven't realized that to do all this, we need people ready to borrow us that money they want to distribute. But the worst is that I'm sure they know it, but they don't care because they just want to be elected. So once again, as usual, they will campaign on fake promise, and they'll cheat French people in making them believe we can do things that we actually cannot do.

hello compatriote, i am an independant but i have to admit that socialist programm will put the country in the if they really applied it. But i don't think the socialist candidate will do it. It's just to get the vote.

On the greece subject, ikaros, you're just discovering how much hypocritical, the french politics can be. Welcome in the jungle dude!

 

[HannibalBarka]

The Socialist in France are not talking about getting rid of Nuclear Energy today, but in the not near future. They propose for example to reduce the part of NE from 75% today to 50% in 2025. The green party, whi is usually their ally, is the one wanting to go non nuclear and is pressing them to do so.
Now, not only I don't think the PS in France has any say on the internal politics of Greece, but I always find it un-democratic and stupid call like those. People are the only one having the right to choose and elect their government, no internal or external "body" has the right to say this is a "legitimate" government or not as long as the government is elected by the People.

 

[onedreamer]

Now, not only I don't think the PS in France has any say on the internal politics of Greece, but I always find it un-democratic and stupid call like those. People are the only one having the right to choose and elect their government, no internal or external "body" has the right to say this is a "legitimate" government or not as long as the government is elected by the People.

Except the current governments in Greece and Italy haven't been elected by the people...

 

[Leoreth]

First of all Italy didn't get in trouble by a long era of right wing governments especially because there isn't a long era of right wing governments in Italy since after Fascism.

I was referring to eight out of the last ten years.

I know how much biased are German Mass Media towards Italy so I'll give you credits this time, but perhaps if you just opened Wikipedia you'd realize how wrong is this statement.

How generous of you.

Back to the point, my point is exactly that the so called left-wing parties (and hence governments) don't exist anymore. If the former government of Greece was left-wing in their program I am the Pope. All that made it a left wing gov. was where they sat in the Parliament, much the same as in Italy.
There is no intention to save Greece or Italy from the debt crisis, if there was there would be a simple solution which is that to cancel interests on debts.

Could you provide a sensible definition of what constitutes a left wing party in your opinion, then? (Actual) Socialists?

Unless you're talking about the austerity measures PASOK had to implement since the crisis began (which isn't their own program by your own admission anyway), they're basically all about welfare, rising wages and public sector expansion. That's a pretty leftist program if you ask me. Not that ND was that different there.

Except the current governments in Greece and Italy haven't been elected by the people...

You don't seem to understand the concept of representative democracy. Governments are not elected by the people (at least not under the Greek and Italian constitutions), parliaments are. You have the same parliament as before. They may now back a head of government that's different from that they initially ran for, but that doesn't subtract anything from its democratic legitimacy.

 

[onedreamer]

I was referring to eight out of the last ten years.

Oh sorry... when you said "long era" I couldn't think of just two, non consecutive legislations on three... my bad?

Could you provide a sensible definition of what constitutes a left wing party in your opinion, then? (Actual) Socialists?

One that doesn't rise taxes on the poorer and fires half public workers as their first austerity measure?

they're basically all about welfare, rising wages and public sector expansion. That's a pretty leftist program if you ask me. Not that ND was that different there.

Yeah, basically is the key word, here. I'm not saying they aren't basically left wing parties, I'm saying they aren't actually. IE in the facts. They have nothing to share with the verve and ideals of their predecessors 60 -100 years ago. Why? Because those parties and movements succeded in ensuring welfare for middle and even most of the low classes, obtained many rights and privileges for the working class. The end result has been a weakening of their political power since the very need of them was much lower. But today I think we need them as strong as before, not these petty surrogates of left-wing parties we have in Italy, Greece and France. In Germany and Spain it is a bit better I reckon.

You don't seem to understand the concept of representative democracy. Governments are not elected by the people (at least not under the Greek and Italian constitutions), parliaments are. You have the same parliament as before. They may now back a head of government that's different from that they initially ran for, but that doesn't subtract anything from its democratic legitimacy.

I understand perfectly the constitution of my country. What you fail to realize is that our current government will be led by someone that has been placed there because he is liked by the Stock Exchanges, not because he is liked by the majority of the Parliament elected by the people, as it should be. He will obtain the trust of Parliament not because of his political ideas and programs but because the international investors like him and so we MUST choose him. I would agree with this solution if it was done to fix a couple urgent matters, especially a better electoral law, and then back to the vote. Important reforms belong to a government formed and chosen by elected people.

 

[HannibalBarka]

I understand perfectly the constitution of my country. What you fail to realize is that our current government will be led by someone that has been placed there because he is liked by the Stock Exchanges, not because he is liked by the majority of the Parliament elected by the people, as it should be. He will obtain the trust of Parliament not because of his political ideas and programs but because the international investors like him and so we MUST choose him. I would agree with this solution if it was done to fix a couple urgent matters, especially a better electoral law, and then back to the vote. Important reforms belong to a government formed and chosen by elected people.

All this sounds Greek to me

The Italian Parliament may have in mind the fact that the new head of the government is "liked" by Wall Street and voted him in because of that (that is partially true, for sure). It is nevertheless the Parliament who chose the government, and therefore the Italian People. the fact that this is not what you like or this is not what the Italian people like just now is another matter, but once election are done and the people have votedn the following government is legitimate and chose by the people. I don't really understand why you seem to say otherwise.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, the Popular Front era was the last time that the Socialist Party actually achieved anything worth a damn, so it makes sense that they'd want to indulge in a bit of nostalgic posturing now and then. Same way Labour occasionally revels in the legacy of Atlee, before going back to being the sort neoliberal weasels that we've come to know and love.

 

[Verbose]

I understand perfectly the constitution of my country. What you fail to realize is that our current government will be led by someone that has been placed there because he is liked by the Stock Exchanges, not because he is liked by the majority of the Parliament elected by the people, as it should be. He will obtain the trust of Parliament not because of his political ideas and programs but because the international investors like him and so we MUST choose him. I would agree with this solution if it was done to fix a couple urgent matters, especially a better electoral law, and then back to the vote. Important reforms belong to a government formed and chosen by elected people.

"The borrower is slave to the lender." (Proverbs 22:7)

It's also the title of the former Swedish PM Göran Persson's book from 1997 about the Swedish debt-crisis, which broke the country back in 1992.

He describes quite well his frustration having to endure hectoring to from Wall Street whelps half his age prescribing for him precisely what Sweden must do under the circumstances.

 

[onedreamer]

Verbose, I fully agree. Personally I have never had debts, except those that others (politicians) contracted for me.

All this sounds Greek to me

The Italian Parliament may have in mind the fact that the new head of the government is "liked" by Wall Street and voted him in because of that (that is partially true, for sure). It is nevertheless the Parliament who chose the government, and therefore the Italian People. the fact that this is not what you like or this is not what the Italian people like just now is another matter, but once election are done and the people have votedn the following government is legitimate and chose by the people. I don't really understand why you seem to say otherwise.

It is not the Parliament who has chosen Mario Monti and they haven't even voted him in yet. The fact is not that I don't like it, but that you don't know what you're saying. Just ignore my rants and focus on your dear France, it will keep you busy enough I'm sure.