Fred Phelps close to death

[civver_764]

It really isn't.

Oh, you may have convinced yourself, for now, that you don't care. You may face the world as if you didn't care. But believe me, deep down, all their opinions? You do care. They're worming their way around your head, repressed. And one day, sooner or later, you're going to realize you care, and it's all going to backfire and explode in your face.

Pretending not to care can only get you so far.

I really don't think it works like that, and I've spent a lot time observing how my mind works. But whatever, you're more than free to disagree.

 

[Evie]

At your age (per your profile), I thought that was how my mind worked, too. I thought I had made it past what others thought and made myself not care.

Came back to bite me in the rear end over my twenties, complete with multiple brushes with depression, is what it did.

 

[civver_764]

I don't think that I've completely made it past what others think, but I'm definitely less insecure than I was when I was 17 or 18. And I do think it's possible for me to continue improving in this area.

If my dad died and someone came up to me and told me he deserved it, you're right there's a good chance I'd flip out, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to not be phased by it. In reality, his words can't do anything to me, that's a simple fact.

There's a reason we value forgiveness so much.

 

[Evie]

A simple fact that ignores completely how the human mind actually works. So no fact at all.

The notion that depresion and other psychological issues and the ilk are just the result of "people not trying hard enough", is self-serving bovine manure spread by the lucky ones who manage to bounce back on their feet to allow them to look down on those who aren't so lucky.

They're very real issues, with very real causes, and people attacking you left and right certainly rank way up there among those causes.

 

[Hygro]

I gave up a long time ago trying to not care about what others think. Now I just care about what others think and am at peace with caring. :elohel:

 

[civver_764]

I think you're reading a bit too much into what I'm saying man. I never commented on the causes of depression, nor did I intend to.

I agree with you, it's a very real issue. And I think something that can only help depressed people(at worst it will do nothing) is remind them that the opinions of other people have no power over them. You seem to think I'm trying to judge you for caring what other people think, and no I'm not. I'm guilty of it myself.

 

[Evie]

What I'm trying to tell you is that not caring what people think is...well, largely an illusion.

Sure, on trivial matter, you might shake your head and be through. I mean if people look at my shirt and frown and look away because for some reason they find it stupid, then yeah, I'm going to just shrug and be on my way. But that's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about people who go out of their way to condemn in the harshest way possible things that are central to who you are, to how you define yourself. And I stand by what I said: you can't ignore that. You need to find a way to cope with it. If you don't, it's just going to come back and destroy you inside out.

Something as simple as having a solid network of friends who can let you vent off, or who can support you, is a way of coping. Putting your experiences in writing can be a way of coping. Channeling your frustration into some kind of effort to make things better can be a way of coping. But you are going to need a way to cope, otherwise words can and will harm you. Repeated often enough by enough people, they WILL plunge you into depression.

The notion that words cannot harm you is a fantasy.

 

[civver_764]

Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Borachio]

The notion that words cannot harm you is a fantasy.

What are words?

The idea that words, by themselves, can hurt me is laughable.

To be hurt by what someone says requires a number of things: I must understand what's been said*, I must accept that it is true (to some extent), and the opinion of the speaker must matter to me.

*the direst insult in a language I don't understand is pretty tame, imo.

The idea that words have power is almost magical thinking. Open sesame!

 

[Evie]

To be hurt by what someone says requires a number of things: I must understand what's been said*, I must accept that it is true (to some extent), and the opinion of the speaker must matter to me.

One of these (the first) is true, the rest is self-satisfied bollock.

Even if you do not accept it as true, the fact that others keep saying it will get at you.

And as to mattering and not mattering: we're social animals. Caring what others in the group think is built into us. Sure, it may not matter much, especially if the opinion is on something trivial, but it always matter to some degree.

But you're welcome to stay in your teenage fantasy where you are not responsible for what your words do to others because it'S not your fault they cared.

 

[Borachio]

"Teenage fantasy"! You flatter me outrageously, sir.

I'm not aware of saying anything about how my words might affect others. Only how their words might affect me.

 

[Mango Elephant]

If you're above caring what others think of you, I envy you greatly. Forgive me if I can't believe you, though.

 

[Borachio]

Um. I don't think I've claimed that either.

Just that the power of words can be over-rated.

 

[Hygro]

What are words?

The idea that words, by themselves, can hurt me is laughable.

To be hurt by what someone says requires a number of things: I must understand what's been said*, I must accept that it is true (to some extent), and the opinion of the speaker must matter to me.

*the direst insult in a language I don't understand is pretty tame, imo.

The idea that words have power is almost magical thinking. Open sesame!

If words can make your body contort and shudder in laughter, then they have a physical affect on you.

 

[Borachio]

Indeed, that's true. If sound waves impinge on my eardrums they have a physical effect.

edit: humour is a funny(!) thing. To get someone to laugh at a joke they have to cooperate with you to a very large extent. This isn't always very hard to do, since people generally do like to laugh. Some people though, don't seem to have much of a sense of humour: even though they understand a joke completely, they simply don't find it funny.

 

[Hygro]

No need to go that far, the psychological reaction to the meaning of the words as you cognitively experience them produce a physical body response outside of the cognitive process.

 

[Borachio]

I'm sorry that makes no sense. (Maybe deliberately so? Is that the point?)

The psychological reaction of the meaning of the words as you cognitively experience them has an effect beyond the cognitive process?

 

[Hygro]

I'm sorry that makes no sense. (Maybe deliberately so? Is that the point?)

The psychological reaction of the meaning of the words as you cognitively experience them has an effect beyond the cognitive process?

Yes, or do you never laugh out loud?

 

[Mango Elephant]

Just that the power of words can be over-rated.

It's not that the words themselves cause pain, it's that words convey ideas that can hurt you.

When we read a good book, sometimes we physically cringe or cry because the words are the powerful. At least for myself and most people, we simply can't disengage ourselves completely from words that have made a deep impact. And if stories can affect our emotions so much, surely hateful words aimed toward us are even more powerful.

The power of words is so fundamental to my life that I simply cannot imagine a life where words can be ignored. If you can disengage yourself from hurtful words, I can relate to you less than I can a seahorse or an insect.

 

[Borachio]

Yes, or do you never laugh out loud?

Indeed, certainly I do. Very frequently. And at the slightest excuse.

But my psychological reaction due to my cognitive processes isn't outside my cognitive experience. It is my cognitive experience.

I simply don't know what you mean by "the psychological reaction to the meaning of the words as you cognitively experience them produce a physical body response outside of the cognitive process".

It's not that the words themselves cause pain, it's that words convey ideas that can hurt you.

When we read a good book, sometimes we physically cringe or cry because the words are the powerful. At least for myself and most people, we simply can't disengage ourselves completely from words that have made a deep impact. And if stories can affect our emotions so much, surely hateful words aimed toward us are even more powerful.

The power of words is so fundamental to my life that I simply cannot imagine a life where words can be ignored. If you can disengage yourself from hurtful words, I can relate to you less than I can a seahorse or an insect.

I don't disagree.

But I think communication is a two-way process. The listener must cooperate with the speaker. It is possible to disengage oneself from "hurtful" words, to some extent, should the need arise. It's just a matter of wanting to, and practice, I think. I've certainly found it useful at times.

Which isn't to say that someone who I consider to be close to me, whose opinion I value, cannot say something which I find hurtful.