Free speech for Fascists but not anti-fascists?
- Thread starter Richard III
- Start date
Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
Or perhaps "Free speech for flaming 09/11 hoax promoters, but not for anti-fascist flamers?"
Since, arguably, that's what's happened in the 09/11 hoax thread. And a good thing, there, too.
R.III
Peri
Vote early and vote often
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2002
- Messages
- 3,261
Regardless of what a poster says it is wrong to flame him. That is fairly obvious. If you disagree with what is being posted, then argue against it constructively and politely. I may have strong views on 'this area of discussion' and as a result I seek to expose the claims as misleading and malevolent through argument alone.
You wont change people's attitudes by censoring them or insulting them
I hope that many people will go along with Voltaire on this issue.
You wont change people's attitudes by censoring them or insulting them
I hope that many people will go along with Voltaire on this issue.
Zcylen
Moonlight Rambler
come more often Richard III 
Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
Reading your post in the WH forum, fair comment Peri, I know where you are coming from.
I should note once again,
#1 - Re: Voltaire, I don't beleive in censorship - in part so we can identify the bastards! - but believe in ostracizing these polluted views so they don't feed on themselves, and
#2 - You do change people's attitudes by making it clear that they are what they are, however, and to a certain degree that's why I'm having this argument. Rmsharpe - for example - may be a hardcore right winger, but I don't think it's fair to say he's a fascist or a nazi. But what else are we supposed to call someone who argues that Hitler's big fault was hypocrisy for not standing up for whites more consistently? There are only a limited number of words to use to describe this outlook and the person who holds them, and better the poor kids (which they probably are) hear it now than later.
I have encountered a few personal examples where this sort of shock therapy has the opposite of the intended impact, as you say. But I have also encountered success stories - myself among them, given the childishly anti-immigrant and uninformed attitudes I had in my teens. It was only when it was clear to me that my ideas really were denounced and repulsive to normal, thinking people that I actually reconsidered them and became the relatively sane person I think I am today.
We recently had an intern who didn't get a job where I work because he was complaining about immigrants in the job interview. The guy is Jewish. When he asked our boss to explain why he - a party worker with impeccable grades - wasn't hired, we asked if he REALLY wanted to know. He said yes. He was told that his views came across as those of a racist, and racists don't get to work here. It had never occurred to him that a political office would see bashing visible minority immigrants as racist, because his assumption was that as a Jew, he couldn't possibly be considered a racist. He has since gone on to take steps to correct his behavior and thanked us for being so direct. If our people had just explained it as "your views on x are a little funny," he would never have thought twice about it.
R.III
I should note once again,
#1 - Re: Voltaire, I don't beleive in censorship - in part so we can identify the bastards! - but believe in ostracizing these polluted views so they don't feed on themselves, and
#2 - You do change people's attitudes by making it clear that they are what they are, however, and to a certain degree that's why I'm having this argument. Rmsharpe - for example - may be a hardcore right winger, but I don't think it's fair to say he's a fascist or a nazi. But what else are we supposed to call someone who argues that Hitler's big fault was hypocrisy for not standing up for whites more consistently? There are only a limited number of words to use to describe this outlook and the person who holds them, and better the poor kids (which they probably are) hear it now than later.
I have encountered a few personal examples where this sort of shock therapy has the opposite of the intended impact, as you say. But I have also encountered success stories - myself among them, given the childishly anti-immigrant and uninformed attitudes I had in my teens. It was only when it was clear to me that my ideas really were denounced and repulsive to normal, thinking people that I actually reconsidered them and became the relatively sane person I think I am today.
We recently had an intern who didn't get a job where I work because he was complaining about immigrants in the job interview. The guy is Jewish. When he asked our boss to explain why he - a party worker with impeccable grades - wasn't hired, we asked if he REALLY wanted to know. He said yes. He was told that his views came across as those of a racist, and racists don't get to work here. It had never occurred to him that a political office would see bashing visible minority immigrants as racist, because his assumption was that as a Jew, he couldn't possibly be considered a racist. He has since gone on to take steps to correct his behavior and thanked us for being so direct. If our people had just explained it as "your views on x are a little funny," he would never have thought twice about it.
R.III
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
That's exactly how I see it as well.
Maybe I don't really understand what the fuss is about, because I wasn't here at the weekend, but in general I think also radical right opinions should have a place here, no matter what I personally think about it.
But of course if someone actually is a Fascist or a Nazi it's not a flame to call him that. In fact he wouldn't be insulted, at least as long as he's not just an idiot who only likes Hitler's moustache or Mussolini's hairdo.
Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
Hitro, read the (closed) "Hitler was a lefty" thread at the back end for more.
R.III
R.III
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
You mean that BNP guy's Hitler comment? Well, to be honest, I don't really see the problem. Technically a racist is also a hypocrite (in his racism) if he "undermines" his own race. If he doesn't he's not. He's not a better person anyway.
And are you surprised that a guy who calls himself "Vote BNP" has racist views?
What I don't understand is what you mean when you say anti-Fascism would be prohibited.
And are you surprised that a guy who calls himself "Vote BNP" has racist views?
What I don't understand is what you mean when you say anti-Fascism would be prohibited.
say rather: the US and its goverment, because of being THE worlds foremost power, have received far more attention by far more people than maybe Uganda. Because of that, a lot more critizism has hit them.
Germany gets about as much bashing, France gets more, but less critizism.
Sadly, a lot of US posters have prooven unable to distinguish the two, partly because of the very special American culture - 'God's own country' and so on. Thus, they feel personally so attached to those (politicians) critizised and have so little training in dealing with critizism, at least the scathing, sarcastic kind most Europeans are used to, that they totally misunderstand many posts here.
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,455
Perhaps it is best to point out that while the BNP in the UK is perhaps seen as just a nationalist party by US posters,
Here in the UK, they are seen as more or less neo-nazis.
'Parties' like the BNP are a disgrace to everything that the UK stands for.
We Brits fought long and hard against the nazis, and we cannot abide them trying to spring up on home soil.
How long would a KKK freak last on CFC?
These nazi supporters should get whacked with the same stick.
Here in the UK, they are seen as more or less neo-nazis.
'Parties' like the BNP are a disgrace to everything that the UK stands for.
We Brits fought long and hard against the nazis, and we cannot abide them trying to spring up on home soil.
How long would a KKK freak last on CFC?
These nazi supporters should get whacked with the same stick.
Pillager
League of Empire Loyalist
Correct. I wouldn't mind seeing a strongly nationalist party in the UK, a bit like UKIP perhaps, but the BNP are unfortunately rather more than just a right-wing party. The criminal undertones, and Nazi overtones definitely put them well over the line. We have a history in this country of not getting anywhere near the extremes found so often on the continent, something of which we should be extremely proud.
Sorry, perhaps a bit O-T there...
C'mon, Carlos. . . I'm sure you've been around here long enough to realize that SunTzu is, well, like that. (No offense, SunTzu. . . nothing wrong with patriotism.)
Glad to oblige. . .
The title of this thread is "Free speech for Fascists but not anti-fascists? "
Lets keep it on topic, please.
Lets keep it on topic, please.
Drewcifer
Agent of Karma
I remember that there was a poster here (for about a half a second) called Knight of the KKK. Did the name have anything to do with his perm-ban? AFAIK the BNP is not far removed from the KKK.
