Free speech for Fascists but not anti-fascists?

[Richard III]

Originally posted by SunTzu
glad to see you continue to always going bashing of america, and its pathetic you say germany and france get bashed more. u obviously haven't been around long.

Sun Tzu, you're not helping. One of the most common anti-american attacks I come across in Canada is that Americans think everything revolves around America. Needless to say, you're making it hard for me to rebut that point when you turn a thread about holocaust deniers and skinhead political fronts into a discussion about anti-americanism.

Hitro, my point is that anti-fascism has already been "suppressed," although I'm using that particular word because it'll do and not because I think the mods are being thoughtless or brutal. First, the "great shakeup" in recent days took place in part to cope with the fact that VoteWasted and John Wayne were being ostracized, trolled, accused of being DLs, etc. by an unusually large collection of CFCers. And then yesterday, I found a guy - Kafka? - who got a warning or ban (can't remember) for attacking Vote BNP for his name in a non-BNP related thread, although of course Kafka would no doubt argue as I would that an inflammatory net handle like "Vote BNP" automatically MAKES it a BNP thread.

Ergo, fascists being attacked are still posting, including posts quoting holocaust deniers. As a free speech advocate, that's fine with me, but I was arguing that guys like Kafka (? or whoever it was) should be equally free to call a nazi a nazi whenever the opportunity arises, if that's clearly what they are, for the good of the forum.

Clearly, so far, the mods disagree, and I think the sense of this thread is that about half of the posters agree, and the other half think aggressive pursuit of these guys might be ok in the right threads but that "invective" - to use Peri's apt word - might be counterproductive.

R.III

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by SunTzu
glad to see you continue to always going bashing of america, and its pathetic you say germany and france get bashed more. u obviously haven't been around long.

Please address the topic at hand...

This is not about USA-bashers.

 

[Stapel]

To me it is very very obvious that a forum name like 'VoteBNP' is a troll in itself.

And by that against the forum rules IMHO.

 

[CurtSibling]

I second that!

 

[anarres]

Drewcifer raised a very good question.

Would a user called "Support the KKK" be allowed on CFC?

A moderator response would be appreciated, so we know where we stand.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I would expect that an organization that has expresses direct racism in it official communications, platforms, etc, as opposed to one than officially speaks on immigartion or transfer payments, would get short shrift. It is NOT, however, a moderators function here to set such polciy. We would get that from Thunderfall, and then enforce his policy on the subject. Thunderfall usually does give us such policies untill they are needed.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Originally posted by Richard III


Or perhaps "Free speech for flaming 09/11 hoax promoters, but not for anti-fascist flamers?"

Since, arguably, that's what's happened in the 09/11 hoax thread. And a good thing, there, too.

R.III

Well, that was me


I agree 100% with you Richard III that having a poster called "Vote BNP" is BAD news and if Lefty etc do condone someone whose entire persona is to promote that party then that lessens them greatly in my estimation.

Halifax has at least one BNP councillor and I'll tell you this, it is the scum and elderly who have put them in and have made them poll so well in our area

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Well, that was me

And a good thing, too. If only we could call him VoteDumbo....

R.III

 

[anarres]

Lefty,

It is a shame that you don't see the similarities between the KKK and the BNP, they are scarily close in ideology.

Freedom of speech is all well and good, but some levels of human decency are required in all socities. CFC is not required to have Freedom of Speech, as is often quoted by the moderators, so you are not bound by the usual legalities that these organisations use to get around loopholes.

I truely hope TF makes an official policy on this soon as racism is not civilized in any form. Posting rascism is already banned, so why not supporting it in your username, title and sig?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by anarres
...I truely hope TF makes an official policy on this soon as racism is not civilized in any form. Posting rascism is already banned, so why not supporting it in your username, title and sig?

I agree.

 

[Toasty]

I support the idea that any basic ideology has to be tolerated, but it's rather how that ideology is put across that is where the moderation steps in.

True, this does create some problems (as has been stated by Richard), but to quote an old saying, "suck it up and deal" . The system we've got is working pretty well, and "human decency" should not apply to whether one's beliefs are acceptable or not, because the line isn't very concrete.

Just my $.02.

 

[VoodooAce]

New mods, same as the old mods.

Its been my epxerience that, all things being equal, the liberal or left leaning posters are 'moderated' far more than those from the right.

 

[Jeratain]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Its been my epxerience that, all things being equal, the liberal or left leaning posters are 'moderated' far more than those from the right.

It all depends on what you say and how you say it. It's been my experience that people who use fighting words and direct personal attacks get moderated more often than those who don't. It is possible to have a civil discussion from all sides of a topic without it getting moderated. Much of the "liberal" posters that have been moderated were those that would post blatantly false information to try and prove their point, or they would throw out personal attacks.

On topic, though I do agree with Richard that there may be a bit of an unclear stance on the subject of free speech for facists but not for anti-facists, I feel that it is our duty to prove them wrong without succumbing to personal attacks until a moderator deems the topic inappropriate or the poster a troll. The fact that you have brought this issue up alone will make the moderators be more aware of this problem many of us are noticing and maybe will help to cut down on it a bit. In the end it's all up to Thunderfall.

 

[col]

I'm sure that Thunderfall will read carefully what is being posted here.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
New mods, same as the old mods.

Its been my epxerience that, all things being equal, the liberal or left leaning posters are 'moderated' far more than those from the right.

Give us a break; I've only been at this, like for 2 or 3 days...

So long as you keep your postings civil, polite and to the point, I don't give a darn whether you're left, right, top, bottom, above, below, in or out.

 

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
New mods, same as the old mods.

Its been my epxerience that, all things being equal, the liberal or left leaning posters are 'moderated' far more than those from the right.

I think this is overstated. I am a Green/left wing American and opposed the recent war but have never even been warned though I have over 500 posts. I try to be respectful to those I disagree with and can usually understand their philosophy though it is definitely not mine, I think that helps. Lately I have seen rabid American jingoists *not mentioning any names* moderated as much as flamers on the other side.

 

[Thunderfall]

Originally posted by Stapel
To me it is very very obvious that a forum name like 'VoteBNP' is a troll in itself.

And by that against the forum rules IMHO.

And I agree with you... That's why I have restricted the Vote BNP account yesterday and told him to come up with a better nick. Also, we will no longer allow any promotion of BNP here since many UK posters find it offensive.

Richard III wrote: Once again, let me reiterate, I don't believe these invaders should be banned or censored, but I do believe that we should be allowed to ostracize them so that they feel their poison won't be treated seriously here and allowed to infect others.

You can't expect moderators to just stand there and do nothing when they see people flaming/attacking someone for posting offensive ideas. The forum rules clearly state that flaming is not allowed -- there are no exceptions. If we allow flaming under some circumstances it will open the door to lots problems.

 

[Peri]

What bothers me more than anything about these posters with extremist views is that they post then run away. VBNP never once replied to the questions I asked him in his threads. It is virtually impossible to engage them in a proper discussion and try to counter their claims because they never stay.
It is also incredibly infuriating when people flame these guys because it plays right into their hands.

This thought was bought to you by Rent-a-Soapbox and the number 3.

 

[Shabbaman]

Originally posted by Thunderfall
You can't expect moderators to just stand there and do nothing when they see people flaming/attacking someone for posting offensive ideas.

I think that answering politely to offensive ideas is always an option. The dumber the message, the easier it is to find a proper response.

 

[SunTzu]

or you can make another forum and start threads to talk about that person, thats always a good idea isn't it shabba