Friendly, fun, noob to moderate level game!

GreyFox · Feb 6, 2006

OK .... ruff, you are UP!

I say we could go for cultural win, but just to turn this into a not so boring game, let's get some war going with Tonku! :hammer:

ruff_hi · Feb 6, 2006

Not much happening - looked at war with Tommy and couldn't find anyone to join in. Started to build up our army. With regards our cultural win, started to spread three religions around our cities and founded a new city. We now have 9 cities and need to build three temples in each city. Then we can have a synagog in each of our culture cities (+50% culture) and the same from the other two religions (+150% in total). I have also renamed the three cities that I think are our cultural centers - have a look and discuss.

Finally, I changed Paris (Culture City 1) to a farm based city and put all of the extra people in as Artists.

Spoiler :

GreyFox · Feb 7, 2006

Got it, but did not play ... decide to discuss it a bit first. Will play & post tomorrow night.

I am a bit curious about the choice of the cultural cities. By choosing the city with the highest commerce as the cultural cities, your intention is to turn the slider all the way up for culture, right? However, that is usally done once we finish researching those techs that will help our culture, so it will be quite late in the game. Does the commerce boost really helps? Wouldn't building on those which already has a high culture be better?

I have won a couple of games (one noble, one warlord) with culture, in bot instances, I won by concentrating the 3 highest culture cities with wonders. I have never given it a thought on commerce. SO I hope to learn something here

We have two great artists in Madrid. Based on my experience, once the route to cultural victory is decided, the following GP are almost always a GA. So, I am thinking of joining them to the other two cultural cities as SS. What do you think? Or should I save one for a golden age?

ALso, Iron city has a citizen as an engineer. Is it stil needed? SHould we change it to a artist specialist instead?

ruff_hi · Feb 7, 2006

GreyFox said:
I am a bit curious about the choice of the cultural cities. By choosing the city with the highest commerce as the cultural cities, your intention is to turn the slider all the way up for culture, right? However, that is usally done once we finish researching those techs that will help our culture, so it will be quite late in the game. Does the commerce boost really helps? Wouldn't building on those which already has a high culture be better?

We are a bit late in our decision to go for cultural victory - you really need to start planning from day 1. Yes, wonders should go in your cultural victory sites (or the other way round - your cultural victory sites should be the ones with the wonders). But if you can get your commerce going, culture that way is huge (400 per round or more).

GreyFox said:
We have two great artists in Madrid. Based on my experience, once the route to cultural victory is decided, the following GP are almost always a GA. So, I am thinking of joining them to the other two cultural cities as SS. What do you think? Or should I save one for a golden age?

Leave them until we can see exactly which cities should be our 3 cultural ones. I think that we should look at the ones with high culture and see if we can get them up and running for commerce too. We know that Culture City 1 (Paris) will always be one of the biggies so it doesn't need a boost. We are trying to get all three over 50,000 (is that the right limit?) at the same time. Having 1 at 90k with the others at 45k isn't helping - lol.

greyfox said:
ALso, Iron city has a citizen as an engineer. Is it stil needed? SHould we change it to a artist specialist instead?

I think he was there for his 3 hammers as the city was on max hammers. It doesn't actually pay to have too many GP cities unless they are all going at about the same pace. I don't see how we can do this in our current game.

ruff_hi · Feb 7, 2006

Latest Roster
1) GreyFox
2) Colonel Kraken
3) ruff_hi

GreyFox · Feb 7, 2006

OK, understood all your points, and I have re-read walkerjs's excellent strategy article on cultural win.

Will try to do what I can with my turnset.

Our goal is to:
(1) build temples in all 9 cities, 3 of each religion
(2) build monastry in the cultural cities
(3) get commerce as high as possible in our cultural cities

GreyFox · Feb 8, 2006

Turn 220 (1550 AD)
Research begun: Liberalism
Tartar finishes: Hindu Missionary
Culture City 3 grows: 12

Turn 221 (1555 AD)
Tartar begins: Hindu Missionary
Culture City 3 finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Estruscan finishes: Longbowman
Orleans finishes: Longbowman

Turn 222 (1560 AD)
Culture City 3 begins: Buddhist Temple
Estruscan begins: Barracks
Orleans begins: Longbowman
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I

Turn 223 (1565 AD)
Buddhism has spread: Culture City 1 <- starting the spread of religion
Hinduism has spread: Culture City 1 <- starting the spread of religion
Virgil (Great Artist) born in Culture City 1
CopperTown finishes: Maceman

Turn 224 (1570 AD)
CopperTown begins: Maceman
Lyons grows: 2
Islam has spread: Edo (Japanese Empire)

Turn 225 (1575 AD)
Tech learned: Engineering <- traded Divine Rights for Engineering with JC
Judaism has spread: Thebes (Egyptian Empire)
Tech learned: Liberalism

Turn 226 (1580 AD)
Tech learned: Nationalism
Research begun: Printing Press
GreyFox: :woohoo:

! We grab liberalism, first!!!
Choose Nationalism as it is the largest beaker count, also allow Taj Mahal for GA.
Tartar finishes: Hindu Missionary
Uzbek finishes: Jewish Temple

Turn 227 (1585 AD)
Tartar begins: Hindu Missionary
CopperTown grows: 8
Culture City 2 grows: 15
Culture City 2 finishes: Versailles

Turn 228 (1590 AD)
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Temple
Uzbek begins: Courthouse
Culture City 2 begins: The Taj Mahal
Hinduism has spread: Orleans
Tech learned: Printing Press
CopperTown finishes: Maceman
Estruscan grows: 7
Uzbek grows: 9

Turn 229 (1595 AD)
Research begun: Economics <- improve our commerce = culture
CopperTown begins: Maceman
Estruscan finishes: Barracks
Orleans finishes: Longbowman
Islam has spread: Izumo (Japanese Empire)

Turn 230 (1600 AD)
Estruscan begins: Maceman
Orleans begins: Forge

The Save (Colonel?)

ruff_hi · Feb 8, 2006

Way to go - that looked like a really good round!

Colonel Kraken · Feb 8, 2006

Turn 230 (1600 AD)

Turn 231 (1605 AD)
Maceman promoted: Combat I
Tech learned: Guilds
Tartar finishes: Hindu Missionary

Turn 232 (1610 AD)
Tartar begins: Theatre
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Culture City 3 finishes: Buddhist Temple

Turn 233 (1615 AD)
Culture City 3 begins: Theatre
Culture City 1 finishes: Islamic Temple

Turn 234 (1620 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Theatre
Hinduism has spread: Culture City 3
Li Po (Great Artist) born in Culture City 1
CopperTown finishes: Maceman

Turn 235 (1625 AD)
CopperTown begins: Jewish Missionary
Maceman promoted: Combat I
Tech learned: Banking
Tartar finishes: Theatre
Uzbek finishes: Courthouse
Lyons grows: 3

Turn 236 (1630 AD)
Tartar begins: Bank
Uzbek begins: Bank

Turn 237 (1635 AD)
Culture City 3 begins: Hermitage
Culture City 1 grows: 13
CopperTown grows: 9
Culture City 3 finishes: Theatre
Judaism has spread: St. Louis (American Empire)

Turn 238 (1640 AD)
CopperTown finishes: Jewish Missionary
Estruscan grows: 8

Turn 239 (1645 AD)
CopperTown begins: Jewish Missionary
Culture City 1 grows: 14
Culture City 1 finishes: Theatre
Estruscan finishes: Maceman

Turn 240 (1650 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Hindu Temple
Estruscan begins: Theatre

I decided to build some Jewish missionaries and send them over to Egypt who already has a couple of Jewish cities. If we can convert ~5 more of her cities, we could have an ally.

I decreased our science rate which didn't affect how quickly we got techs by too much and increased our culture rate to 20% while still maintaining a positive budget.

GreyFox · Feb 8, 2006

colonel said:
I decided to build some Jewish missionaries and send them over to Egypt who already has a couple of Jewish cities. If we can convert ~5 more of her cities, we could have an ally.

Might be difficult though, since she founded her own religion... but its always good to spread our religion around (1) money, (2) spying

I see we are now having 4 GAs.

Good call on starting to push our culture slider up :thumbsup:

, its already 1650, we have to start developing the culture else we may not get legendary before AI gets to space.

I would suggest the non-culture-core city to continue pouring millitary ... because (1) with culture slider up, we would strat to trail in tech, so we are facing more and more powerful adversaries :spear:

(2) we are still #8 in power. :sad:

ruff_hi · Feb 8, 2006

Colonel Kraken said:
Turn 234 (1620 AD)
Li Po (Great Artist) born in Culture City 1

greyfox said:
Turn 223 (1565 AD)
Virgil (Great Artist) born in Culture City 1

WOW - only took 9 rounds for a great artist!!

Guess I am up.

ruff_hi · Feb 9, 2006

pre flight
Looking good. I cracked up our GP city again - more artists coming thru

Turn 240 (1650 AD)
Tartar begins: Jewish Temple
Estruscan begins: Jewish Temple
Orleans finishes: Forge
Lyons's borders expand

IBT:
Judaism has spread: Nubian (American Empire)

Turn 241 (1655 AD)
Orleans begins: Jewish Temple
Culture City 1's borders expand
CopperTown finishes: Jewish Missionary
Lyons grows: 4

Turn 242 (1660 AD)
CopperTown begins: Knight

Turn 243 (1665 AD)
Golden Age begins
Culture City 2 finishes: The Taj Mahal
Lyons finishes: Longbowman

Turn 244 (1670 AD)
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Missionary
Lyons begins: Jewish Temple
Tech learned: Economics
Culture City 2 finishes: Islamic Missionary

Turn 245 (1675 AD)
Tech learned: Gunpowder - traded with Hatty - got $ too
Research begun: Constitution
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Missionary
Islam has spread: Orleans
CopperTown finishes: Knight
Culture City 2 finishes: Islamic Missionary - the power of golden ages
Estruscan finishes: Jewish Temple
Orleans grows: 7

Turn 246 (1680 AD)
CopperTown begins: Musketeer
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Missionary
Estruscan begins: Musketeer
Islam has spread: CopperTown
CopperTown begins: Islamic Temple
Culture City 1 finishes: Hindu Temple
Culture City 2 finishes: Islamic Missionary
Tartar finishes: Jewish Temple
Amir Khusro (Artist) (Great Artist) born in Tartar
Estruscan's borders expand

Turn 247 (1685 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Islamic Missionary
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Temple
Tartar begins: Hindu Temple
Culture City 1 finishes: Islamic Missionary - that didn't take long
Tartar finishes: Hindu Temple - two temples in two rounds (chop power)
Culture City 3 finishes: Hermitage
Estruscan grows: 9
Uzbek's borders expand
Uzbek finishes: Bank

Turn 248 (1690 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Islamic Missionary
Culture City 3 begins: Jewish Synagogue +50 culture coming up
Uzbek begins: Library
Culture City 1 finishes: Islamic Missionary - again!
Tartar grows: 12
Uzbek grows: 10
Orleans finishes: Jewish Temple
Lyons grows: 5

Turn 249 (1695 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Islamic Missionary
Orleans begins: Islamic Temple
Islam has spread: Tartar
Tartar begins: Islamic Temple
CopperTown finishes: Islamic Temple
Culture City 2 finishes: Islamic Temple
Orleans's borders expand

Turn 250 (1700 AD)
CopperTown begins: Islamic Monastery
Culture City 2 begins: Islamic Mosque +50 culture coming up
Islam has spread: Uzbek
Uzbek begins: Islamic Temple
Culture City 1 begins: Hindu Monastery - needed for Hindu missionaries - do we have other cities that can produce this unit?

review ...
We can revolt to free market (more $) once golden age is over. Also think about changing religion to Islam at the same time - the holy city gets +5 culture instead of +1. The present +5 is going to coppertown which isn't one of our culture targets. I'm chopping unused forests for temples. We need to spread islam to 3 cities and Hindu to 4 cities before we research Scientic Method. We have 9 Jewish Temples so we can build Synagogues in our cultural cities (the sooner the better). We also have enough Islam temples for two Mosques (I think). We need to gear up on the Hindu Temples for the same reason.

On the diplomatic front - Cyrus cancelled OBs with us, Washington doesn't like us and everyone else is luke warm.

GreyFox · Feb 9, 2006

The Golden Age should end after I press "ENTER" ... :sad:

Would the change to Islam cause us not be able to spy on the foreign Jewish cities?

Are we the first to get Economics? I don't see any Great Merchant borned in the autolog, so I guessed not :ack:

am I up again? That's less than 24hrs!!! :eek:

(I'm still sleepy due to the lack of sleep last night ... or should I say this morning ~ 3AM).

:coffee:

Ok, Got it. Will play tonight ... if the coffee can keep me awake

ruff_hi · Feb 9, 2006

GreyFox said:
Would the change to Islam cause us not be able to spy on the foreign Jewish cities?

I don't think so. See if you can find a foreign city with Islam only and see if we can spy on it. I think there might be a japanese city that converted. I also don't think it affects the $ coming in. If we generate a GP prophet, we can create the $ building for Islams.

GreyFox said:
Are we the first to get Economics? I don't see any Great Merchant borned in the autolog, so I guessed not

Nope - we were well beaten to it by the Americans for one. There are a number of civs more advanced than us. We might want to turn up our research and leave the culture thing until a huge push at the end.

How much culture does a city need for 'legendary' anyway? How much are our GP artists individually worth?

GreyFox · Feb 9, 2006

ruff_hi said:
I don't think so. See if you can find a foreign city with Islam only and see if we can spy on it. I think there might be a japanese city that converted. I also don't think it affects the $ coming in. If we generate a GP prophet, we can create the $ building for Islams.

I don't think we have the Islamic shrine yet, so ca't test that theory.

ruff_hi said:
How much culture does a city need for 'legendary' anyway? How much are our GP artists individually worth?

legendary=50000 culture, GA = 4000 (great work), 12cpt (super-specialst, raw, before modifiers)

-

ruff_hi · Feb 9, 2006

GreyFox said:
legendary=50000 culture, GA = 4000 (great work), 14cpt (super-specialst, raw, before modifiers)

So, with three religions plus pacifism gives a +250%. super-specialst gives 14 * 2.5 = 35 so we need 114 rounds to give the 4000 from the great work. I think it will take us at least that long to get over 50k so maybe super-specialist is the way to go. The only issue is "do we know which cities need the boost?"

I'm going to do some experimenting on these issues with the save and WB to try and get a projected legendary date for our three cities. I'll post findings tonight.

GreyFox · Feb 9, 2006

Turn 250 (1700 AD)
MM CC-1 and CC-3 to starve for the time being, but increased hammer
Ruff, please remember to watch for Starvation in CC-2.
Estruscan finishes: Musketeer

Turn 251 (1705 AD)
Someone named Livy is stating the obvious ...

Estruscan begins: Musketeer
GreyFox: JC declared war on Tonkgawa, we could perhaps get a free ride

Culture City 1 finishes: Hindu Monastery
CopperTown finishes: Islamic Monastery
Tartar finishes: Islamic Temple
Uzbek finishes: Islamic Temple
Golden Age ends

Turn 252 (1710 AD)
CopperTown begins: Catapult
Tartar begins: Hindu Missionary
Revolt for Free Market

Turn 253 (1715 AD)
GreyFox: Peter asks for OB again ... swaying bastid... but I agree
Culture City 1 finishes: Islamic Missionary
Tartar finishes: Hindu Missionary
Uzbek finishes: Library
Islam has spread: Edo (Japanese Empire)
Islam has spread: Edo (Roman Empire)
Look at Rome's stack of doom .. very glad not at the receiving end ... poor tongku

Turn 254 (1720 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Buddhist Temple
Uzbek begins: Musketeer
GreyFox: Rome captured Edo
Tech learned: Constitution
Michaelangelo (Great Artist) born in Culture City 1
CopperTown finishes: Catapult
JC asked for help in war, ... considering our military "might", I declined.

Turn 255 (1725 AD)
Research begun: Corporation
CopperTown begins: Islamic Missionary
Islam has spread: Estruscan
Judaism has spread: Pi-Ramesses (Egyptian Empire)
Culture City 1 grows: 15
Culture City 2 finishes: Islamic Mosque
Lyons grows: 6

Turn 256 (1730 AD)
Culture City 2 begins: Hindu Temple
Tongku come asking for help -- rejected
Hinduism has spread: Uzbek
Estruscan finishes: Musketeer
Uzbek finishes: Musketeer
****, we lost our bananas :angry:

Turn 257 (1735 AD)
Estruscan begins: Islamic Temple
Uzbek begins: Hindu Temple
CopperTown grows: 10
CopperTown finishes: Islamic Missionary

Turn 258 (1740 AD)
CopperTown begins: Jewish Missionary
Culture City 1 finishes: Buddhist Temple

Turn 259 (1745 AD)
Culture City 1 begins: Jewish Synagogue
Islam has spread: Lyons
Culture City 2 finishes: Hindu Temple
Orleans finishes: Islamic Temple

Turn 260 (1750 AD)
Culture City 2 begins: Hindu Mandir
Orleans begins: Hindu Temple

After Turn Notes

- have been builfing templs and missionary

- watchout for Asoko, his power suddenly jumped nigh ...
Plus I declined one of his "begging" foo Divine Rights

- current status of cities:

the Save ... (Colonel is up!)

ruff_hi · Feb 9, 2006

GreyFox said:
MM CC-1 and CC-3 to starve for the time being, but increased hammer - Ruff, please remember to watch for Starvation in CC-2.

Islam has spread: Edo (Japanese Empire)
Islam has spread: Edo (Roman Empire)

Tech learned: Constitution

****, we lost our bananas :angry:

CopperTown begins: Jewish Missionary

Comments:
- I'll keep an eye on those cities.
- funny that Islam spread twice, once just before the city fell, and once just after
- does constitution give us access to representation - should we revolt?
- was the loss of bananas a result of a culture bomb - can we test that?
- why Jewish missionary - all of our cities are already Jewish - suggest military as I know that I am starting to feel threatened by the other civs

GreyFox · Feb 9, 2006

Reponse:
- Yes constitution should enable representation ... we should have revolted. I can't when we learned (just revolted to Free Market) ... and forget abt it there after ... :smoke:

- Yes, it was a cultural bomb. The AI seems very fond of this tactic (cultural bombing a just-captured city).
- If I recall, Copper Town can only build Jewish missionary (the other 2 are dimmed). Anyway, we could use some money (spread to Hatty). Next player is welcomed to change it to millitary. But I have been constantly building millitary units whenever I can spare.

Oh, by the way, JC did ask us to join in the fight, but at that time the eastern cities near Tonku were very poorly protected. I did not join in. Now we are in a better position by the end of my turnset, so if next player want a spoil of war, by all means. I have position some forces for that end. With a captapult, knight and some musketeer, also can pull in those swords that are performing guard duty on resources.

ruff_hi · Feb 9, 2006

Research Results
The most we can get out of our current culture cities is just under 500 for Culture City (CC) 1 and CC2 and about 300 for CC3. This is with 4 religious buildings giving +200% (yes, spread budda around and go the whole temple route with that religion too - and, I guess, any other religion that spreads to us). Ignoring their starting culture position, this means it will take about 100 turns (what year is that?) for us to hit 50,000 in CC1 and CC2. Now, the super specialists give 12cpt and with a +400% in CC2 (only +300% in CC1 and CC2), that is 12*5=60cpt (or 48cpt for CC1 and CC2) per artist. Over 100 turns that is 6000 (4800) as a super specialist and only 4000 for a great work. The break-even point is when we are about 66 (83) turns off hitting 50,000. We have 5 great artists at the moment. That means 60*5 or 300 cpt if they all go in CC3 for a total of about 600 cpt for CC3.

We can improve culture city 3 by putting in some towns (more commerce) - it will get up to about 360 cpt. It is a pity we don't have fish (or similar) there.

All of the above assumes that we have all 4 religions spread to all 9 cities, all 4 religion's temples build in each city and each religion's special culture building build in the CCs. We are a number of turns off that yet.

I would suggest that we put 3 artists into CC3 as super specialists right now and hold onto the other 2 plus any other that we generate. AND get cracking on the spread religion, build temple, build culture religion building - chop or whip if we have to.

Friendly, fun, noob to moderate level game!

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