From warlord to noble

[Hegel]

Hi guys etc.

I simply can't win a game on noble level! I can easily win 75% of all games on warlord, but I keep getting trashed on noble. I have studied the beginers guide elsewhere, checked up on optimal starting strategy, and yes - Ihave read the manual as well

The typical development of the game is roughly as follows: I'm in the lead in early game (up to and perhaps including a few techs beyond liberalism) - then I reach a crossroads: either I continue to (try to) keeping ahead in the tech race, and then I get pulverized around year 1750-1850 by a massive invading force; or I try to counter with various diplomatic means and military strength, meaning that I fall massively behind in tech develoment, and by mid-1900 I am too far behind to catch up on either a space race or a superior-unit aggressive civ.

What, exactly, is the big jump between warlords- and noble level that I have missed?

cheers, Hegel

 

[jm4civ4]

Hi guys etc.
What, exactly, is the big jump between warlords- and noble level that I have missed?

Hey...I am still a newb but I win on Monarch (usually)

If you are able to stay ahead or even up to liberalism or so, then you are doing many things right, IMHO. What do you tech after LIB? What free tech do you take from LIB? Let's look there....

Do you run CE, SE?

hope i can be helpful

 

[Hegel]

Hi - I'm so jealous I can barely contain myself

Well, depending on the set-up, I normally pick whatever tech is most costly as the freebie after liberalism, but if I am already falling behind in military strength, I might go for something that helps me there.

I mainly go for CE, but I diligently try to go for some city specialization as well. My most succesful (i.e., least disastrous) attempts have all been with Elizabeth as a leader, so I try to have a science speciality city built up with a science academy and at least one super-scientist and a more production-oriented one to get some nice engineers. All that, and I try to develop economy as well.

Having played all the previous civilization games, I have developed a pretty defensive atitude: I generally do not like to attack before I have armor... could that be a key to explaining my failure? Also, I have speculated that I might go for advanced civics etc. too soon...

oh - for techs researched after liberalism, I usually go for a mix of older techs I have missed out on because of bee-lining for liberalism, and techs leading towards consolidating my economy...

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Hi - I'm so jealous I can barely contain myself

Well, depending on the set-up, I normally pick whatever tech is most costly as the freebie after liberalism, but if I am already falling behind in military strength, I might go for something that helps me there.

I mainly go for CE, but I diligently try to go for some city specialization as well. My most succesful (i.e., least disastrous) attempts have all been with Elizabeth as a leader, so I try to have a science speciality city built up with a science academy and at least one super-scientist and a more production-oriented one to get some nice engineers. All that, and I try to develop economy as well.

Having played all the previous civilization games, I have developed a pretty defensive atitude: I generally do not like to attack before I have armor... could that be a key to explaining my failure? Also, I have speculated that I might go for advanced civics etc. too soon...

oh - for techs researched after liberalism, I usually go for a mix of older techs I have missed out on because of bee-lining for liberalism, and techs leading towards consolidating my economy...

Im wondering if part of the answer is given in your last sentence..i.e.

I usually go for a mix of older techs I have missed out on because of bee-lining for liberalism

If you are going to go after LIberalism, at the expense of everything else, then you have to ask yourself why your are doing it (it IS only one free tech, and unless you are going cultural, its not really that useful in itself)...

Ok a free tech is always nice, but missing stuff out on the way, can lead to problems. Take a much earlier example at the start of the game. Say you first tech An Husb, then Bronze Working, and have neither Horses nor Copper anyway near you. Well, now teching straight for Iron Working may seem a good idea, but its generally suicidal, you have to go Hunting/Archery instead. By the time you get to IW, the barbs/ai civs will have killed you (dependant on map size / difficulty lvl etc.) Even when you get Archery, then you still can't really go straight for IW, you need Pottery and/or Writing first, otherwise your economy will kill you instead (taking that you are expanding as best as you can)...

I play Emp and above, and whatever the civ, I almost always tech Hunting/Archery first, just because well, experience has taught me better safe than sorry

Back to beelining for Lib, I virtually never bother with it. If I get there first, its a bonus, if I don't then so what...I'd place a much higher value on learning to trade to your advantage, and teching paths that suit your civ, map and opposition....which only really comes through experience...

Not saying that this applies in particular to you, but hey, hope there was something useful somewhere in this ramble

 

[jm4civ4]

Hi - I'm so jealous I can barely contain myself ....
I generally do not like to attack before I have armor... could that be a key to explaining my failure?

After reading many posts on these forums my game improved...there are some great players out there. Hats off! Your successs will most likely increase as you apply what you read.

The Spec Econ guide in the war academy was especially helpful.

As to the above, that may be an area to look at. I wage a fair amount of war at various stages, regardless of what stage my military has progresssed to. Lately I have trying EARLY rushes and it has worked at times. There is a post about that too, I will post the link shortly. I have found that so much of my success depends on the map and where the rivals are. Development is tied to who is or is not isolated or has room for safe expansion.

My umbrella tactic is too wipe out someone early and assume their lands. And geography dictates my strategy.

There was also a recent by Kesshi about an evolving economy. I will also send that, as it has been very useful.

 

[jm4civ4]

The Spec Econ guide in the war academy was especially helpful.

Lately I have trying EARLY rushes and it has worked at times. There is a post about that too, I will post the link shortly.

There was also a recent by Kesshi about an evolving economy. I will also send that, as it has been very useful.

"Aamto12" started a thread in the BTS forum called "Oh my goodness! Liberalism slingshot to..." it is a great read.

Post#21 of the thread is Kesshi's early/trade route economy. It is in the context of a 44-cities, don't expect the same results from a 5-8 city fledgling empire.

Post#14 contains the link to Kesshi's "Religious Economy". Putting his excellent ideas together with the little I know about SE gives the "evolution of economy" concept.

The above metioned articles are:

Beg.'s Guide to SE by Jack of Clubs in War Academy/Empire Management.

Early Rush by Sisisutil in War Academy/Miltary Strategy & Tactics.



Just for example..I have included the saves for my highest scoring game. These are BTS 3.13 files using the HOF 3.13 mod, you must have the mod to open the files. If this is useful then I would be pleased.

I was not expecting a result anything like this. I was amazed when I saw the adjusted score above 100k. I simply applied the JackofClubs SE ideas and was aggresive when I felt I could be. Most importantly, the map was my biggest ally. I was able to cut off the Ottomans (in the east) and they became easy targets. In an even bigger stroke of luck, there was desert between me and the other 3 rivals, so expansion toward me was less than usual AND caused wars amongst those three. I was able to roll right on in...well more like roll around....and in....and out.....then back over there, then back here. Have fun and let me know how it goes.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Moderator Action: Moved to Strategy & Tips from the Quick Answers thread.

 

[war ensemble]

I would definitely suggest getting an early religion / shrine and spread it as far as you can. That can be a massive help for an economy early on and in itself can pay for early city maintenance. Getting your own state religion set up with a shrine and appropriate wonders (ie. the ones that give you bonuses for religious buildings can be huge seeing the bonus you can get from a very cheap temple or something like that.)

On archipelago maps, I would suggest Financial and getting the Colossus. I would also suggest trying out a bunch of different map types and leaders.

I would also suggest not waiting until armour to attack another civ. With most map types unless you REX you will be then get stuck with a rather small empire leading to a production disadvantage/bullying from neighboring civs. If the map permits, I would definitely look towards conquering the continent early while keeping tech rate at or above 70%. Early wars are much easier and cost effective than late ones, and war weariness is hardly an issue seeing as you are hardly near the happy cap. Plus, most enemy civs' get good capital locations so you will start with quality lands. Once you get this done, you can just keep a decent navy, while focusing on teching and have no problems to beating the AIs. After a while Noble shouldn't be so bad.

Also, you might not be using Corporations to your advantage if you fall behind in teching and production in the late game. Certain corporations can overcome this and I suggest you take a look at some of those.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The typical development of the game is roughly as follows: I'm in the lead in early game (up to and perhaps including a few techs beyond liberalism) - then I reach a crossroads: either I continue to (try to) keeping ahead in the tech race, and then I get pulverized around year 1750-1850 by a massive invading force; or I try to counter with various diplomatic means and military strength, meaning that I fall massively behind in tech develoment, and by mid-1900 I am too far behind to catch up on either a space race or a superior-unit aggressive civ.

This sounds like you aren't getting your share of the land (second possibility is that you aren't using your land well, but that seems unlikely). As a result, you are getting stomped by the AI that has your land plus their land - this is a bit more expensive early, so the AI falls behind for a time (also, the AI isn't very smart), but the larger economic base can overcome the inefficiencies and pull away from you in mid game.

I generally do not like to attack before I have armor... could that be a key to explaining my failure?

Oh yeah.

A couple of principles

Land is really important. Furthermore, land tends to be more profitable the longer you have it (more time to develop it, and more time to convert the initial small advantages into much bigger ones). An additional benefit is that if you have your share of land, then your neighbors don't have your share - reducing their ability to produce units and be a threat.

Technology is not important for its own sake, but for the opportunities it opens up. One of those opportunities is beating on your backwards neighbors, and forcing them to give you things (promoted military units, cities, technologies, the satisfaction of watching them squirm, and so on).

So if you've been playing turtle until you get to Armor, you are almost certainly ignoring a number of earlier opportunities to convert your temporary advantages to a winning position - and that's no way to play a strategy game.


Recommendation: search the forums for discussions of catapults (and other siege engines). Roll up a Continents map, and set yourself the goal of wiping out all of the civilizations on your continent before liberalism is discovered, then try to win a space race.

 

[Naraka]

I think I am along the same lines. Though my initial strategy always inevitiably seems to be 'cut off expansion of neighbors so I can expand'. I'll scout and explore and find my neighbors, and then establish cities along good spots (usually choke points, isthumus's and such), and then 'backfill' the land back towards my capital, or around the coastline, and then internally, and not have Open Borders at all.

I don't know why I do this. I think it's because in the past with Civ 2/3 I try to expand gracefully starting nearest my capital, and then my nearest rivals would leap right past me and establish cities BEHIND my 'front lines'.... so most of my games seem to end up being just massive land grabs, then teching and building up while attempting to remain at peace because I have no military and no economy from too fast expansion.

Civ 4 is horrible for me in that respect because it's MUCH harder to do. Seems you have to expand a little slower, then catch up with your economy, then expand a little bit more, then catch up economy again, etc. It's really quite frustrating!!!

 

[Hegel]

Thanks for all the great advice! I can see I have to take some time off to get through the material, though

still, I have one remaining basic question: what IS the difference or what are the diffeences between warlords and noble levels?

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

Noble has no techs beyond the two you start with, no research/production bonuses, very few free units, a very small boost over Barbs, and generally puts you on par with the AI. The higher you go, the AI starts getting bonuses over you, much like what you were getting at Settler/Chieftain/Warlord.

 

[jm4civ4]

Thanks for all the great advice! I can see I have to take some time off to get through the material, though

still, I have one remaining basic question: what IS the difference or what are the diffeences between warlords and noble levels?

I suggest a copy of the 76-page pdf reference document created by Dj anion. It is available for download and is found in the Civ4 BTS forum. It is the sticky with the hot pepper icon. One of the last pages compares all of the bonuses or penalties for each diffuculty level. VERY USEFUL.