[GS] Future Update?

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He has repeatedly written or asked for saved games in the Bug Report forum ...

What does it tell you, that his last post on CivFanatics till now was on the day of the last Patch? And his last login here was on the day before Knecht Ruprecht, the punishing companion of Saint Nicholas ... ;)

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...that he might not even work on the team anymore?
 
As a software engineer I can garauntee you that the above is incorrect. Not trying to be rude.

Edit: I should have been more specific. The CPU and memory usage of a simple 'AI' is trivial compared to the rest of the game. Thus, if your device can run the rest of the game, the AI of civ will not be an issue.
I guess I was wrong on this one. I was basing my thoughts on the fact that it took a super computer named Big Blue to best a chess champion, and that chess does not have nearly as many options for the AI to go through.
 
I believe one of two things are happening at the moment.

1: A patch, DLC, or Expansion is in the works and has been hidden from our prying eyes. The activity we have observed was either necessary for testing or accidentally exposed, but the majority of the work is being done behind the scenes.

2: A pacth, DLC, or Expansion was in the works but some internal restructuring or event has put the brakes on the process or has changed the trajectory of CIV 6.

I lean toward option 2. There are indicators which I feel imply this. I have also tried to put myself in the shoes of an executive of Firaxis and/or 2K to determine how I would react to the development of CIV 6, especially the last patch and red death. A harsh, but significant viewpoint has emerged as I put myself in their shoes. One thing I would be frustrated with, and this is only one example, is the pantheon exploit. Why are we making side project scenarios and games while simultaneously creating a potentially game breaking Multiplayer exploit or identifying it through testing if it existed beforehand? Our minds are not focused on the task at hand and we are working for ourselves and not the end consumer. This is a very harsh observation, I know, but I have wondered why Red Death was given so much attention to have been an added feature. When I play this game, in its current state, I have yet to have an AI use its air power in any significant way other than fly in circles as I invade or experienced or witnessed a naval invasion across open sea that has any meaningful impact on another continent. I am sure these have been witnessed or experienced by some, but my experience has been different. i tend to avoid using naval or air power because it feels cheesy to me.

I love the Civilization franchise and still play despite the exploit, or the lack of AI air power use, etc. I have seen great improvements over time with the AI and the early game on Pangea can be challenging and fun on the higher difficulties. This indicates to me that they know how to improve things, but are we dedicating the right amount of effort and resources toward what makes a game like this exciting and engaging. I am sure this has something to do with different disciplines on the development team doing their parts and one does not always have the resources to keep up with the other. Meaning, Designers are not QA and QA are not coding, etc. This is where producers and production managers have to redirect resources and set a clear set of goals, keeping everyone on task and keeping the tasks focused on the benchmarks set forth by the executives and distributors. It is in noway easy and I understand there will be bumps along the way. I feel that some shift in resources, redirection by the distributor, internal operational restructuring, cost benefit analysis, re-purposing is potentially occurring.

For those at Firaxis who might read this. I personally support you as developers and as people and my speculative ramblings are just that, speculative, but from a lifetime of experience in the entertainment industry, they are plausible and reasonable observations from a very limited point of view.
 
I guess I was wrong on this one. I was basing my thoughts on the fact that it took a super computer named Big Blue to best a chess champion, and that chess does not have nearly as many options for the AI to go through.
It seems to me like there's a dance the developers have to do; between features, AI, and system requirements. (Reminds me of the old saying that there's Cheap, Good, and Fast; and you can pick two of the three:)).

Anyhow, like them or not I'd say there are definitely more features and systems at play in 6 than previous iterations. I'm sure they could make a killer AI if they went back to Civ 2 rules or whatnot. People like the cool new toys though.
 
I really admire you haven’t lost faith already. I seriously consider almost 5 months of silence extremely and unquestionably disrespectful to all of us regardless of however many times they have done it in the past and that it worked for them; of course, people kept coming back. Also, I find it incomprehensible that their partner, Aspyr, hasn’t acknowledged and gone out of their way to fix an issue that is impacting many players on MacOS. Not one response in the Aspyr thread over on Steam nor here in almost 5 months? Nor Real support help on their website. What is one post saying, Hey, we hear you! We’re working on it. And the fix it! When Firaxis says we are the best fans in gaming, by best I truly wonder what they mean. Patient? Understanding? Loyal to the point of being ridiculous? Gullible? Suckers? I wonder sometimes. I’ve worked in many industries and having people wait doesn’t bode well in all of them, unless you condition them to it and they let themselves be conditioned and consider it normal. So, I lost my faith and my loyalty has been affected which funny enough, considering how this is inconsequential in the big scheme of things and life and the world nowadays especially, it still saddens me because, well, most people here will understand why in their own way; the game represents something more than just a way of killing time. I hope Firaxis understands that and it’s not all business. Ever the idealist here!




Interesting enough, out of curiosity and influenced by a thread here that started discussing people’s alternatives to Civ VI, I ventured into Paradox with EU4. I am grateful now for the delay because it surely woke me up personally to other gaming experiences and how you can be treated better there. I was truly a one game man. Anyway, EU4 and Paradox can be many things good and bad, or so I have heard; it’s all new to me still, but I am enjoying it after feeling a bit guilty, I’ll confess. I had read people’s opinions here from time to time, their pros and cons of the game and of Paradox itself, but, Oh my! just by simple comparison in this one thing, and what is truly now a welcomed notion and is selling me the idea of cautiously supporting that franchise is their weekly updates, how they are done, the more open culture it represents and the feelings they evoke in me. It blew my mind away being able to receive weekly feedback, discussion, interaction and passionate commentary with developers; well, I mostly read trying to understand the game still, but it’s exciting and rich. Now, Firaxis does indeed lurk in the shadows here and we get a real kick out of it; it feeds speculation which is loved by so many, including me, and we’re so grateful for the meager droplets of charitable communication given. But who really reaps all the benefits by what it’s discussed here without truly becoming vulnerable, risking much contact with us and giving something meaningful back? Well, to me what EU4 is doing just makes a huge difference now and I understand why many of you had mentioned the same here. It shows a level of consideration, respect and empathy for the fan and interested gamer who is giving their most precious of possessions, time, to play a game. I personally don’t have much time to play games, but I have given some of that precious time In my life and purposely chosen Civ as my go-to game, having been really loyal in my quiet way because I have loved the game experience with a lot of added personal meaning. So, Firaxis, it isn’t funny anymore.



I agree. One is more willing to deal with “bugginess” when one is treated respectfully and they truly intend do something about it. Right now, I have very little desire for expansion or whatever they have in store and it’s sad. I just feel they’re not on the side of those who make the company what it is, but all of it seems to be absolutely about working on their purely financial interest, following an outdated form of doing things that fit the personality of people in charge; a common mistake in organizations. Yes, I know they’re a business and not charity, but haven’t we learned enough of what businesses are capable of when there’s no real heart or understanding? As an example, Aspyr delayed work on R&F just so they could sell the game on IOS as a novelty during the holidays that year. Recently, worked on other platforms and did not work on the current issues that don’t allow many MacOS players play. What I gather is: They have their money already. They can make them wait and 2K/ Firaxis proud to have that added income, exposure, market, etc., understandable, business wise. But it’s not right and it’s ugly, cheap even.



I study, help and work with organizations and your notion that companies want to make customers happy is flawed, especially when you say all. That would cost too much. Most businesses will make the customer happy as long as it doesn’t affect their bottom line and interests. You’re right they want and need more of your money, but they will try to give you the least amount of quality in the product for that amount of money. Plus, they will study the client base and the market and cater to the least common denominator which in this case is the gamer who doesn’t know as much of the game as people here do and to whom the details and quality don’t matter because they don’t understand the difference, buy on impulse and might have been conditioned to it. What a company fears most is a knowledgeable, intelligent, kind hearted, informed and a demanding client base who doesn’t conform. I’ve been in so many meetings with potential clients where they wanted my profession and others used to make them rich first and foremost, despite people’s interests, as long as it was legal. Funny enough, the legal department also becomes involved when they encounter the feared client based demanding their rights. Now, Firaxis isn’t the monster I have seen professionally, but it never ceases to surprise me how companies keep doing the same old things to their detriment. Humankind might and should be a wake up call for 2K regardless if they are successful or not. Being comfortable up top has never been good to any company. Change, however uncomfortable, is good. And who knows, maybe they have paused to do just that.

Having said that, I do believe people and organizations can learn and change, so I’ll throw that out there more explicitly. And if I’m wrong, too bad there isn’t two-way communication for that reason as well.

I can't like this post enough. This is sums up my feelings as well, and I can't really understand the strategy of complete radio silence and leaving bugs unfixed. As a developer, that's the last thing I'd do.

I wonder if the fanbase is really a "civaddict", and they know that no matter what they do or how they treat us, we will cave in and buy whatever they throw at us.
 
...that he might not even work on the team anymore?
Those who know won't tell?!

To be more ON TOPIC to the thread: Nobody does now what he did in 'Bug Reports'.

Is this (small to us visible) functionality no longer needed? I though, as Lead Producer he is involved in the decision which bugs need to be patched and how the working power is scheduled.

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Is it possible there is some internal strife at Firaxis that might explain the current situation? I was sifting through Ed's twitter account earlier to look for hints and noticed he "liked" a thread from someone (@TFischConcept) who was recently laid off after having worked on Civ 6 as an artist. Against this backdrop, his February 4th retweet of someone saying "Whoever did the character design and animation for Cleopatra in Civilization IV wasn't paid enough" might appear in a different light as well.

It just seems strange that we have gone from 'some content is about to be announced' to absolute radio silence in recent weeks.
 
I guess I was wrong on this one. I was basing my thoughts on the fact that it took a super computer named Big Blue to best a chess champion, and that chess does not have nearly as many options for the AI to go through.
While true, that was also way back in 1997. Computing power has seen explosive exponential growth ever since we first invented them, and while I don't know the specific specs of Deep Blue it's probably realistic to say that something like even a PlayStation 3 is vastly more powerful.
 
I must say thay now I have a new job I can no longer stay up late, so take that as the good sign it is
 
Honestly at this point their communication with fans/customers is so ugly for recent times that I don't think even sudden reveal "Play we are working on third xpac after all" will make me satisfied. Distaste will remain.

I have simply engaged with too many gaming companies who have contact with their fanbase - weekly, monthly, random, whatever - and keep it informed what's happening - to tolerate 4,5,6 months of silence before dropping next patch or DLC and running back to high silence. This is not the way to earn customer respect in 2020, at least regarding as massive and sophisticated games as 4X, and one begins to doubt there some really important innovations are going to happen with Civ if they have communications and development schedule as if it was year 2005.

(to be honest I am not sure if it isn't actually worse than civ5 era - that'd mean regress, not stagnation :p )

Civ is strangely conservative series recently. Everybody else stopped doing a ancient two - xpac - model - few - patches - nothing else method (I actually prefer many relatively optional DLCs over this), communication is beaten horse, AI is more or less terrible for a decade - "okay" but never acknowledging the issue for a decade is not okay. Down to mechanics - some very stale fundamental mechanics that changed little for a long time. God damn how long is this game having traditonal 8 difficulty levels? Despite this measure utterly not working for the last decade - first three diff levels are ridiculous and nobody plays them, "normal" is super easy and "ultimate challenge" deflated horribly between civ4 and civ6.

The same strange paradigm "cities need hills to have any decent production" - no connection to history in any way (half of worlds great metropolies of history wouldn't work according to this idea) and eternal pain regarding city placement and development.

The same extreme snowball problem in the early game and very linear growth afterwards.

No taxes or any actual interesting economic system (God forbid resembling history), just yellow round from the ground forever, thank God at least trade system exists, it was actually amazing innovation in BNW. Btw maybe thats why I am do disappointed, BNW was that one incredibly innovative iteration.

Eternal problem of people demanding some sort of civil warz revolution, rebellion, secession system - impossible to realize forever and forever because of one problem "who would be leader screen for split civs", forever a major block to make this game more dynamic because of that stupid technicality and avoiding the subject.

The same blue currency pay for a static tree way to tech progress (except now needs purple currency too), no innovation here despite countless ideas to make progress more interesting. Look at Stellaris semi-random card-based specialist-appointing different-yield-for-different-tech-category system to see much much could be really innovated here over 25 years. All Eurekas did was adding a ton of tedious simple micro movements on top of a mechanic stale over entire series.

Map covered with mindless Barbarians akin to orcs or insect hivemind for 25 years instead of turning them into something requiring strategy and God forbid resembling history (I am honestly surprised modern cultural changes didn't make the very idea of "chaotic evil savages can't negotiate must exterminate" humans controversial :D )

The same old story with community loving every bit of immersion and yet steady decline in "feel the living world" aspects (statistics, demographics, victory cinematics, god forbid Random Events because they reduce steady dopamine flow and may make you feel bad etc)
Steady regress in other areas such as modding

Brave New World was an incredible breath of fresh air and shown how much can you change and make game deeper, more dynamic and engaging even with a single expansion. Then comes civ6 which is civ5 2.0 but with half of once amazing civ 5 BNW features actually worse (garbage world congress, no more ideology cold war, somewhat inferior feeling religion) and major innovations being really based around crazy micromanagment hidden under the idea of innovation (a ton of tedious braindead moves needed to tech fast, need to babysit ever city over every tile placement, millions of religious unit spam apparently counting as enhanced religion, even more painful army movement through rough terrain, need to constsntly spam new builders instead of steady work of workers, TWO tech currencies and tech trees, more painful wonder placement, governors micromanagement, every damn city State and great person nie having separate bonus etc)

Oh and feature bloat - that's also civ6 idea of innovation. Culture victory has seemingly a ton of more options now, and yet its lategame is less exciting than in civ5. World congress seems to have much more options than civ5 WC but its an utter abomination when compared with its precedessor - you know, maybe turning every mechanic into arcade slot machine instead of keeping feet on the historical ground wasn't that good idea. Religion has a ton of mechanics devoted to that stupid idea of physical religious combat, and religious victory is by far the most tedious and boring of all.

The best thing is - all this feature bloat and more micromanagment only widen the abyss between human and terrible AI who cannot use them, so they actually may make the game more boring instead of less boring, as it is becoming easier - you get more and more perfectionist means to ruin mentally challenged AI :D

I love this series (as a wise man once said: the opposite of love is not hate but indifference :p ) and I really hope Humankind actually turns out better in most areas, succeeds and forces Civ devs to innovate in making the game deeper, not wider and not with just more currencies and bonuses drowning your attention spam and AI's incompetencs. Oh and more immersive and making you feel like you shape history, not generate multicolor points in a board game.

Throw out half of mechanics and two thirds of bonuses, make rest of mechanics converge into some deep strategy and procedurally generated story, make them just suitable for AI enough to sometimes make you fear it, make the game truly moddable and maybe next iteration will avoid the embarassment of barely outdoing ten year old civ5 in current player user counts on Steam.

I mean, there have to be reasons why civ5 was still having more players than civ6 for YEARS after 2016 and having less only relatively recently. Still, 40% of daily players of those two belong to 6 years older civ5 today. This is also counteargument regarding our complaints being seemingly only of a small group of lunatic elite.
 
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I don't blame Firaxis for the communication standstill (I think history demonstrates that it's probably a reflection of 2K's policies rather than Firaxis) but it's just so disappointing to hear nothing for months on end. I agree Krajzen that their method of community engagement seems so dated in comparison to what other companies (both AAA and smaller) do nowadays.

I'm not a marketing analyst and I don't know the numbers, but it's difficult for me to imagine that this policy is paying off. It's not just superfans like us who are clamoring for something: the more casual Reddit and Discord audiences are constantly asking "what's next? is the game abandoned?" The overall mood of frustration is growing every week, both on those platforms and here on CFC. I myself, once 100% sure that we'd be getting a ton of new content and continued support, have resigned myself to the notion that I'm probably going to be disappointed.

It all just seems like a massively missed opportunity. We have money and want to throw it at you, Firaxis! Give us something! I love this game. I don't want it to be over yet.

Humankind is clearly reaping the benefits of this, as evidenced by the groundswell of anticipation and excitement on this forum.
 
Honestly at this point their communication with fans/customers is so ugly for recent times that I don't think even sudden reveal "Play we are working on third xpac after all" will make me satisfied. Distaste will remain.

I have simply engaged with too many gaming companies who have contact with their fanbase - weekly, monthly, random, whatever - and keep it informed what's happening - to tolerate 4,5,6 months of silence before dropping next patch or DLC and running back to high silence. This is not the way to earn customer respect in 2020, at least regarding as massive and sophisticated games as 4X, and one begins to doubt there some really important innovations are going to happen with Civ if they have communications and development schedule as if it was year 2005.

(to be honest I am not sure if it isn't actually worse than civ5 era - that'd mean regress, not stagnation :p )

Civ is strangely conservative series recently. Everybody else stopped doing a ancient two - xpac - model - few - patches - nothing else method (I actually prefer many relatively optional DLCs over this), communication is beaten horse, AI is more or less terrible for a decade - "okay" but never acknowledging the issue for a decade is not okay. Down to mechanics - some very stale fundamental mechanics that changed little for a long time. God damn how long is this game having traditonal 8 difficulty levels? Despite this measure utterly not working for the last decade - first three diff levels are ridiculous and nobody plays them, "normal" is super easy and "ultimate challenge" deflated horribly between civ4 and civ6.

The same strange paradigm "cities need hills to have any decent production" - no connection to history in any way (half of worlds great metropolies of history wouldn't work according to this idea) and eternal pain regarding city placement and development.

The same extreme snowball problem in the early game and very linear growth afterwards.

No taxes or any actual interesting economic system (God forbid resembling history), just yellow round from the ground forever, thank God at least trade system exists, it was actually amazing innovation in BNW. Btw maybe thats why I am do disappointed, BNW was that one incredibly innovative iteration.

Eternal problem of people demanding some sort of civil warz revolution, rebellion, secession system - impossible to realize forever and forever because of one problem "who would be leader screen for split civs", forever a major block to make this game more dynamic because of that stupid technicality and avoiding the subject.

The same blue currency pay for a static tree way to tech progress (except now needs purple currency too), no innovation here despite countless ideas to make progress more interesting. Look at Stellaris semi-random card-based specialist-appointing different-yield-for-different-tech-category system to see much much could be really innovated here over 25 years. All Eurekas did was adding a ton of tedious simple micro movements on top of a mechanic stale over entire series.

Map covered with mindless Barbarians akin to orcs or insect hivemind for 25 years instead of turning them into something requiring strategy and God forbid resembling history (I am honestly surprised modern cultural changes didn't make the very idea of "chaotic evil savages can't negotiate must exterminate" humans controversial :D )

The same old story with community loving every bit of immersion and yet steady decline in "feel the living world" aspects (statistics, demographics, victory cinematics, god forbid Random Events because they reduce steady dopamine flow and may make you feel bad etc)
Steady regress in other areas such as modding

Brave New World was an incredible breath of fresh air and shown how much can you change and make game deeper, more dynamic and engaging even with a single expansion. Then comes civ6 which is civ5 2.0 but with half of once amazing civ 5 BNW features actually worse (garbage world congress, no more ideology cold war, somewhat inferior feeling religion) and major innovations being really based around crazy micromanagment hidden under the idea of innovation (a ton of tedious braindead moves needed to tech fast, need to babysit ever city over every tile placement, millions of religious unit spam apparently counting as enhanced religion, even more painful army movement through rough terrain, need to constsntly spam new builders instead of steady work of workers, TWO tech currencies and tech trees, more painful wonder placement, governors micromanagement, every damn city State and great person nie having separate bonus etc)

Oh and feature bloat - that's also civ6 idea of innovation. Culture victory has seemingly a ton of more options now, and yet its lategame is less exciting than in civ5. World congress seems to have much more options than civ5 WC but its an utter abomination when compared with its precedessor - you know, maybe turning every mechanic into arcade slot machine instead of keeping feet on the historical ground wasn't that good idea. Religion has a ton of mechanics devoted to that stupid idea of physical religious combat, and religious victory is by far the most tedious and boring of all.

The best thing is - all this feature bloat and more micromanagment only widen the abyss between human and terrible AI who cannot use them, so they actually may make the game more boring instead of less boring, as it is becoming easier - you get more and more perfectionist means to ruin mentally challenged AI :D

I love this series (as a wise man once said: the opposite of love is not hate but indifference :p ) and I really hope Humankind actually turns out better in most areas, succeeds and forces Civ devs to innovate in making the game deeper, not wider and not with just more currencies and bonuses drowning your attention spam and AI's incompetencs. Oh and more immersive and making you feel like you shape history, not generate multicolor points in a board game.

Throw out half of mechanics and two thirds of bonuses, make rest of mechanics converge into some deep strategy and procedurally generated story, make them just suitable for AI enough to sometimes make you fear it, make the game truly moddable and maybe next iteration will avoid the embarassment of barely outdoing ten year old civ5 in current player user counts on Steam.

I mean, there have to be reasons why civ5 was still having more players than civ6 for YEARS after 2016 and having less only relatively recently. Still, 40% of daily players of those two belong to 6 years older civ5 today. This is also counteargument regarding our complaints being seemingly only of a small group of lunatic elite.

On the plus side, we now have leader memes and console version!

Spot on commentary on the flaws of the current iteration of Civ. And I don't see them moving to a more historical or simulation approach, so let's hope Humankind delivers.
 
Tuesday the 25th is Carnival. But I don't know if that has any relevance at all at this point.
 
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I am now convinced that Firaxis is working on an Wizard of Oz schedule for Updates, as in:

"Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Updates Fly
Sadly, not in Our Direction
So we only sit and Cry"

To indicate the opinion of Civ VI's current state of development and potential for any real improvement, I'd also point out that the Humankind Speculation Thread now is in its own section down in Other Civ-Related Games in this Forum, and in Civ VI - Ideas and Suggestions we have two Threads going on Tech Tree Revision and Ideas for the Perfect 4X Game because, basically, there are some of us that think no 'Update' will be enough to salvage Civ VI.

To quote Ambrose Bierce about the brick airplane, when it comes to Civ VI:

"All the details are correct: the only problems are basic and fundamental"
 
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