G-Major 100

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No, I haven't tried them. But looking the situation you are in, I would have great difficulty to spawn an empire from such start. Not only you will barely start to raise your army around 2000 BC and a have a decent one around 1500 BC, but the gigantic army of barbarian units will just feed the AI's with XP's, making them harder to dislodge. Cho-ko-nu are for sure a powerful unit, but by the time you get a hold of them, other kind of units, way earlier will have the upper hand: Praets, WC's, Immortals.

It is extremely difficult to find a strong Ancient Era start with a PH Stone as its center. At best there is 1-2 food resources (usually one is Corn) and usually no Gems or Gold for initial quick commerce.

Getting the Chokonu units early enough to overwhelm the AI is the key part of the strategy I have been trying to develop.

It probably would be easier to use Immortals, War Chariots, Praetorians in an Ancient Era start, but I decided to give Chokonus a try via GS bulbing of Metal Casting (maybe), Machinery and most of Engineering.

And the most discouraging factor is the ancient start by itself. During those 50 turns, you are virtually doing nothing compared to an deity AI.
While a classical start, you start at least with a worker and decent chances to snatch more to almost equalize yourself to the deities for a moment.

You are right. With Ancient Era starts, I've spent nearly the first 25t building a few Warriors, researching Masonry, Animal Husbandry and completing The Great Wall.

Classical Era starts are viable in comparison (especially given the required Raging Barbarian option which really holds Ancient Era starts back) and you are probably right that they are superior to Ancient Starts, given kovacsflo amazing 1140 AD win with them.

However, I can't use the GS bulbing Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Engineering strategy with a Classical Era start, because it only works by avoiding Fishing (as well as a few other technologies). Thus, I'm motivated to use an Ancient Era start to build very early Chokonus and Trebuchets.

You have given me a idea though regarding popping of Classical Era technologies, by allowing Tribal Villages. It would be awesome to pop at least two of Mathematics, Construction, Iron Working, Metal Casting and Machinery. Getting the latter two would allow one to build Crossbowmen or Chokonus as soon as Iron is connected.

Usually, early in time, many scouts are swarming around, diminishing the early presence of barbs. I deal spears with archers. By T15 , I usually have 3 workers. By T20, I sometimes have 5 workers (4 stolen). All ready to chop chop chop. Losses are present, but another lightly defended capital will make up the loss.

All excellent tactics.

Settling on horses or copper is an interesting possibility, but I haven't done it once.
I think it is not necessary.

I only mention the option; I do not advise it; settling to maximize the value of the BFC is paramount.

Of course, a barb may appear out of nowhere, but bad luck may occur at any time. I even saw a normal deity games where an archer spawned at T20 already entering into my border because of the coast formation, goading my sole warrior. And I was lucky I had that warrior as most people are used to think normal barbs invade around T40.

For this gauntlet, I've seen Barbarian military units enter one's culture before t15. They start appearing in normal speed Deity level games around t12.

I did notice that leaving a scout to bust fog was sufficient to reduce Barbarian units to a trickle in one of my Classical Era games.

All in all, I have difficulty to imagine an ancient start as powerful as a classical one.
Even before Kovacsflo's description, I tasted the "easiness" of a classical start and how we may abuse the AI.

Given that the Ancient Era start is forced to build The Great Wall to the exclusion of all else for the first 25 turns, I'm inclined to agree, especially when the BFC is diminished due to the Stone needed to be the capital city center and the relative lack of other resources.

Anyways, I see you are quite responsive towards me recently...in the negative.
I know I have to learn a lot and the path is quite long...but I haven't give up yet.

I enjoy discussing Civ IV BtS strategy with you too!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

It is extremely difficult to find a strong Ancient Era start with a PH Stone as its center. At best there is 1-2 food resources (usually one is Corn) and usually no Gems or Gold for initial quick commerce.

Technically, what is difficult is the huge map factor. By a night, the mapfinder will generate around 300 maps; with constrainsts, around 50 good maps (for me horses).

You are right. With Ancient Era starts, I've spent nearly the first 25t building a few Warriors, researching Masonry, Animal Husbandry and completing The Great Wall.

Classical Era starts are viable in comparison (especially given the required Raging Barbarian option which really holds Ancient Era starts back) and you are probably right that they are superior to Ancient Starts, given kovacsflo amazing 1140 AD win with them.

Indeed, not only you waste turns on basics for survival, but the AI will have 50 turns to prepare its defenses. OTOH, on classical start where the AI starts with one more archer and worker, seriously, a normal deity AI will have more by 2000 BC.
Like Another city already settled or two for imperialistic ones. More workers, improvements, soldiers and perhaps and few infra.
Steal their worker and bang that AI is turning himself to an ancient start.

You have given me a idea though regarding popping of Classical Era technologies, by allowing Tribal Villages. It would be awesome to pop at least two of Mathematics, Construction, Iron Working, Metal Casting and Machinery. Getting the latter two would allow one to build Crossbowmen or Chokonus as soon as Iron is connected.

Yes, you got it right. Huts result on a classical start are actually useful compared to those low cost worker techs. And all civs start with a scout in a classical start; no more unbalanced starting scout versus a warrior. Same for tech level; we ARE on the same ground as the deities!11!1
I agree the math popping is awesome. No forest loss right away; we have to be realistic, early we have to use some forests to speed up the future empire growth.
In addition, math unlocks currency and construction and calendar.

To be honest, all techs that can be popped are useful;
HBR, Aesthetics, Metal Casting, Monarchy and math are good. Only IW is the little weak spot given its low value in trade and all AI will trade it away at some point.

Except the weird Music popping (along with a free GArtist), all medieval techs are disallowed from popping rules.

For exact list of huts' techs...

I did notice that leaving a scout to bust fog was sufficient to reduce Barbarian units to a trickle in one of my Classical Era games.

I still think your AI compressing job is insufficient. Take high sea (I am sure you did it)
and cold climate; the result can be amazing as some AI's are stuck in the icy north, being pummeled constantly by the barbs and being a weak target.
All this for the classical start of course; in a ancient start, I guess you wish the AI being pummeled a little too.

I enjoy discussing Civ IV BtS strategy with you too!

Glad you're capable to bear my paranoid mind...

 

[kovacsflo]

Thank you for your great write up!

Your Classical Era Immortal Strategy using Darius I is obviously the best, since you have proven it with a great date (1140 AD).

How many Civs are you at war with for the purpose of pillaging their land, especially Copper and Iron mines plus Horse pastures and Ivory camps?

Sun Tzu Wu

In my 1140 as game I only attacked 1 AI for destroying iron (after capturing a city defended by 2 axemen). One other didn't have a strategical resource at all till they capitulated. Latet on, having enough cats spearmen are not that fearful.

Actually there wasn't any ivory in the old world.

 

[kovacsflo]

Oh. Hi, Kovac. Have Just noticed you.. Did you ever read the messages, out of curiosity? ^^[/QUOTE]

Sorry Tachy, I am just having an extremely busy week, but I would likely to get your avatar with the yellow eyed girl. I am not going to change my own avatar, but still it will be col to get it.

 

[Manco Capac]

deleted

 

[kovacsflo]

About barbs and early worker stealing: I found that after some few turns the starting archer should go back to capital since there will be some barb spearmen attack. Stealing workers with them is not worth of it without maths.

There might be some exceptions of course if you get maths from a hut or an AI is next to you.

 

[Manco Capac]

About barbs and early worker stealing: I found that after some few turns the starting archer should go back to capital since there will be some barb spearmen attack. Stealing workers with them is not worth of it without maths.

There might be some exceptions of course if you get maths from a hut or an AI is next to you.

Are you that sure? It depends how well one crams the AI's and where we start.
I made 3 attempts up to now (one of them full-fledged until I noticed the map is turd for fast conquest) to get the feeling of classical environment and I had few really few problems with barbs. Only cases I fear are the most northen locations under cold climate and still I have gotten away with the archer miles away forever.

 

[Manco Capac]

I have a ongoing game.
But seriously I hate those "We're fine on our own" messages. I read it was about target's army worth more than 2/3 of ours, but seriously Suleiman still refuse to give with his last city with a remaining wounded soldier after losing tremendous numbers of soldiers(good war success on my side way over 40 pts) and losing 4 cities out of 5...what the hell. This set me back much. And Genghis! He has the same behaviour, but that is common from him. If only they give in, perhaps Kovacsflo's date wouldn't be that surreal.

Now, 1070 AD, 6 dead civs, 2 peacevassals, two capitulated civs, 7 remainings where most are backwards, some stuck in the frozen strip of lands. I have like 3x more power than the remaining civs. In a nutshell, all the strong ones are under the palm of my had. The game is basically won.
The only problem will be those refusals to capitulate and the distance. Perhaps a 1300 AD on the way.

 

[Manco Capac]

Any ideas about lifting the "We're fine on our own"? Crush an army, then CF, then war again, values changing, capitulation?

It means the AI has at least 2/3 of own power. Just kill more units, then they will agree to ratify the treaty.

 

[Manco Capac]

Got a finish of the said game. A dozen turns later than Kovac's game.
By my definition, this means a weak game, borderline very weak on normal speed.
Anyways, setting 17 civilizations isn't the best choice, although eliminating the barb presence early. Exploding score around 47k.

Anyways, I finally got my revenge of that deity G-Major 90 where I failed.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Got a finish of the said game. A dozen turns later than Kovac's game.
By my definition, this means a weak game, borderline very weak on normal speed.
Anyways, setting 17 civilizations isn't the best choice, although eliminating the barb presence early. Exploding score around 47k.

Anyways, I finally got my revenge of that deity G-Major 90 where I failed.

Congratulations! That's a extremely good game! I doubt that I'd be able to muster anything to match it in the time remaining; in fact, I doubt I'll be able to complete any game before the deadline. Console yourself with the fact that in kovacsflo's best game, the last civ peace vassaled himself, saving several turns on his winning game (which is still awesome in my opinion).

The disadvantage of starting with 17 opponents is you will need to conquer/vassalize 17 cities plus 17 secondary cities started as early as turn 5. Effectively, you need to vassalize 7 more opponents.

The disadvantage of starting with 10 opponents is you will face larger civs with up to 70% more cities and the raging barbarians will be more of an issue.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

I've been trying real hard to beat Kovacflo's ridiculously good 1140AD time.

My final attempt fell short.


I was going for vassalizing all 10 civs on a smallish pangea map and hoping for a lucky decision of Conquest instead of Domination (yes 50% chance of win isn't a good strategy), but I triggered Domination in 1050AD right I was about to assault the last civ's main army and border city. I knew I should have razed Joao to the ground and gifted all my conquered cities back to buy time, but I was going a little crazy, yea fanatical in my zeal and forgot about the dom limit. . Now I will just cross my fingers that the attempt gets accepted.
(My mind is a little fuzzy on opening earlier saves to compare with other failed attempts, but I stopped playing this one around T128 for a few days because things weren't going very well on the teching front )

I'm not going to lie. I chose Augustus for the Oracle, but popped Bronze Working from a goody hut! So I rapidly expanded like crazy to 5 cities with amazing imperialist settler chops while teching Iron Working after Agriculture.

Then I see my neighbor Ghandi gets an early Oracle, and he founded hinduism. So I bided my time while spamming praets ignoring things like barracks and granaries and even monuments. Then I went crazy on Ghandi after he used his great prophet 25 turns later to make a shrine and easily captured it. Later, the Praets kept winning major battles at 33% on his capital, so I kept using the first few great generals to make a lot of the praets have 3 promotions.

Once I took a few of Ghandi's cities, Asoka and Joao attacked me from behind. They took a border city, but took monumental losses against my stack of praets guarding my capital on a hill, giving me even more great generals. I teched mainly by peace treaties. Didn't even have a vassal until around 350AD, but after that I got 6 more and 2 dead civs in around 30-40 turns. Once your power rating is about double all your opponents, hitting and killing a large army of theirs seems to get them to capitulate.




I wouldn't call piles and piles of early luck a strategy, nor relying on luck at the end, but I can tell you what all my hours of trying gave me the smallest huge map

There is a special dwarf map on Huge Pangea. It has less than 1000 land tiles. There is a small deserted island on the side ocean, which compresses the width of the main continent to make a small central blob of land. To find one, select Pangea, High Seas, Solid Coastline, and Toroidal World wrap. Hover the mouse over the land info in the bottom right to see how many land tiles are in the world at the start. *Thanks Tachywaxon * If you alt+G regenerate the map for about 5 minutes, you should see one (Around 1 in 50 maps are less than 1000 tiles with these settings). There are also maps around 1150 tiles, which is the one I used on this attempt, but if you want the smallest one, then the 970 tile map with the empty island is the best. Once you find one, retire and you can see what it looks like. I'd say around 50% of the time the sub-1000 tile map will have the island, and the rest it will be a wide hotdog shape. I couldn't make the Romans work on the 970 tile maps because it was too crowded with 10 Deity AI.

Just so the evil competition maker knows, plenty of rather good starts were scuttled by the raging barbarians ...

 

[Manco Capac]

My final attempt fell short.

[...]I triggered Domination in 1050AD[...]

[...]
Now I will just cross my fingers that the attempt gets accepted.

I'm confused. Did you succeed some supreme 1050 AD!? *Eyes pissing blood*
Ancient start win...okay...not gonna mess with you...oh god...so much to learn.

Yes, I read it all, but I found myself confused.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm confused. Did you succeed some supreme 1050 AD!? *Eyes pissing blood*
Ancient start win...okay...not gonna mess with you...oh god...so much to learn.

Yes, I read it all, but I found myself confused.

Na, the G-Major 100 victory condition is Conquest. Winning a Domination game on this gauntlet I would consider a failed attempt.
My 1505AD finish is currently 3rd hehe.

 

[Manco Capac]

Na, the G-Major 100 victory condition is Conquest. Winning a Domination game on this gauntlet I would consider a failed attempt.

Well, I didn't understand the point where you triggered dom, but still submitted it.
I suppose you meant you wanted your dom vic accepted although the messing with saves.

That was a excellent map research. A good HoF player has to deal with every little detail to win the earliest possible.

Anyways, that suck hard. If I undestand well, you would raze Kovacsflo's date by a hair, making you the winner of this ultimate gauntlet...and on ancient start.

Hats off.

 

[Manco Capac]

My 1505AD finish is currently 3rd hehe.

May not worth much. But I will remember you almost won the gauntlet.
Like I remember many other facts and legitimate winners.

BTW, your turn-set approaches in our team thread.

 

[Manco Capac]

Congratulations! That's a extremely good game! I doubt that I'd be able to muster anything to match it in the time remaining; in fact, I doubt I'll be able to complete any game before the deadline. Console yourself with the fact that in kovacsflo's best game, the last civ peace vassaled himself, saving several turns on his winning game (which is still awesome in my opinion).

The disadvantage of starting with 17 opponents is you will need to conquer/vassalize 17 cities plus 17 secondary cities started as early as turn 5. Effectively, you need to vassalize 7 more opponents.

The disadvantage of starting with 10 opponents is you will face larger civs with up to 70% more cities and the raging barbarians will be more of an issue.

Sun Tzu Wu

Another fact is how the worldwide tech rate change as one adds opponents. When I started the march for vassals around 840 AD, they had macemen, xbows, almost castles and knights. Good thing Peter wanted be my vassal for free as expected from him.

BTW, I think you pushed yourself too much with cho-kos. They are strong, but even the wildest and most hardcore deity player would have problems with them due to innate higher cost and initial REX. I even doubt Rusten or Duckweed would have a competitive date with those. I may be wrong though given the miracles I read from them once in a while.

 

[Bugio]

Hover the mouse over the land info in the bottom right to see how many land tiles are in the world at the start. *Thanks Tachywaxon

I'm feeling stupid right now, i can't seem to find this kind of info... could you be more specific? That would seem quite a useful thing to know in many occasion.

 

[Bugio]

Never mind i think i found it! It's the score you were meaning and the land component actually tell you how many land tiles are in the map. Cool trick!

 

[shulec]

In the right bottom of the screen, if you put the mouse over your name in the scoreboard, it will pop up a little window on the left side of the screen telling you a number of things, one being how many land tiles in your territory and how many in the map.