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G-Major 116

I was under the impression that coding is always and never easy at the same time. No one thing is conceptually hard, but blink once or twice and lose concentration and you've a mess. I've only done a little bit of it in my life though, and it was a long time ago. Along with biostatistics and database techniques, it's something I'd like to pick up at some point.
I was speaking more in terms of effort (time, resources, etc.). Frequently, something they think would take weeks to accomplish can be done in a few days and vice versa.

Coding comes down to aptitude and talent. Aptitude being detail oriented, organized, and able to learn the concepts. Having a talent for conceptualization and abstraction helps a lot along with good memory. Experience can overcome lack of native talent. Lack of aptitude not so much. The problems you describe are either a lack of aptitude or experience. ;)

I have 30+ years doing just about everything but C++ and web development. What I know I have had to learn on the job, so to speak. I hope it is lack of experience rather than aptitude that makes the mod a bit of a reach. :mischief:
 
You just don't understand well enough how it works to argue effectively. For example, seed culture is not necessary.

I understand perfectly fine. I have used the spread culture mission and read several articles describing the mission in detail (one whose link I posted earlier in this thread in fact) as well as an thread where it was used to win a cultural victory about five years ago.

The spread culture mission provides +5% culture in the city based on total culture from all Civs present there. If there is no (seed) culture present in the city, +5% of 0 = 0. One simply has to have seed culture to gain the +5% compounded cultural interest per successful spread culture mission. Zero seed culture clearly will not work.

To win fast, one must have enough seed culture to avoid the shear numbers of spread culture missions that would otherwise be required. I'd guess the target city must have at least 20 total culture to avoid the +5% increase from being rounded down to zero.

However, starting at 20 culture, it would take an extremely long number of missions to get up to 4000 (same as a Great Work at normal speed). We still need a large number of missions to get up to Legendary Culture, 50000 at normal speed.

Presumably, the most efficient means of creating seed culture is a great artist for each city who creates a Great Work. Is that not the way Kaitzilla did it? That's how I would do it.

Irregardless, I don't think it can done with less than 20 seed culture. I suspect that the additional missions and the consequential Spy detection could become a diplomatic issue, so a larger amount of seed culture would be desirable.

And your analogy with "early rush/war plus culture" is not relevant. In that case you still need to generate culture the tradition way. It makes as much sense as saying we should investigate forest chopping because early forest chops make for more competitive culture games.

This is not an analogy. An early rush can secure many cities very cheaply plus access to the early religions. I would not entirely ignore the power of war. Didn't you recently finish a Cultural Victory in about 400 AD via an early rush? Thanks for providing the "proof" for the point I'm making. ;)

Yes, after securing the needed cities, one must build (seed) culture in the cities before giving them away. That (seed) culture of course has to done via traditional means. Espionage assist can optionally be used here too with the war option too, so its not a mutually exclusive option. Still it is a valid point that things other things than espionage can speed up the cultural victory. Espionage is limited by how quickly it can be produced and by the discounts that can be applied which are quite significant.

You are right, forest chopping does help build cultural buildings faster, provided one has enough forests and workers. I'd always considered whipping Cathedrals, but chopping them would work too.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Congratulations Kaitzilla! It's now an official win!

Thanks for explaining your strategy. I knew one would want to start with The Great Wall, but I had no idea one could get so many Great Spies. I suppose Code of Laws is the first technology target to build a Courthouse and run a Spy Specialist as well as adopt Caste System to run many Artists. Then Alphabet for Spies. It seems it could work to run Spy Specialists and Artists in the same city, but then one would be dependent on luck which great person one preferred to get first (probably three great artists).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I have 30+ years doing just about everything but C++ and web development. What I know I have had to learn on the job, so to speak. I hope it is lack of experience rather than aptitude that makes the mod a bit of a reach.

I admittedly haven't looked at much civ code ever, aside from what gets posted forumside. I had 1 class roughly 9 years ago, so it's more fair to say experience ;). I was quite good at the time, but that was baby stuff.

I can somewhat infer things based on what I see here, though not knowing what exactly is referenced is problematic and typically I look at that kind of stuff when I wouldn't have access to the code.

Part of me misses being an official student. Work is fine, but it doesn't have that same pressure. Maybe after a few years experience I'll get pressured in work and forget about it though. It's not like one stops learning after school, but I've had to initiate a lot of it on my own thus far.

but then one would be dependent on luck which great person one preferred to get first (probably three great artists).

I'd imagine the timing would be somewhat flexible. After all, most of the EP gets spent at once in culture missions. However, it would be possible to get too many artists to the point that spies come too slowly.
 
That is an impressive :culture: win with the use of spies which required a good understanding of the :culture: and :espionage: mechanics (i.e. how much :culture: a city has when it is captured and how much :culture: stays when the city returns to the civilization or how much :espionage: is needed to reach legendary). The use of spies also made :culture: wins funner since most average :culture: wins tend to be long and boring since one has to wait for the 3 cities to reach legendary.:goodjob:
 
I've been watching this thread since I participated in this game (and got my butt kicked) :blush:
Just curious, could a limited number of spies be used to speed up an otherwise "traditional" cultural game? At least with my game, the last 30-40 turns was just waiting for culture to be add up 150 per turn. If planned out carefully, how competitive will "hybrid" strategy be? Assuming it is even viable.
 
I disagree. Simply divert resources from culture to espionage at any point in the game (mainly the slider), ensure you have the means to recapture the cities. This also may only work better if one has better espionage bonuses than culture bonuses. A bureaucratic capital with huge commerce sources will be an emmense help with generating more espionage via the slider.

However, the main reason that espionage is better is all cities contribute espionage to a common pool. Give all three culture cities to the AI and one can simply apply all espionage to that AI for no lossage. For traditional culture generation, each culture city must generate its own culture with the very important exception of great artists, which any city can generate.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Congratulations Kaitzilla! It's now an official win!

Thanks for explaining your strategy. I knew one would want to start with The Great Wall, but I had no idea one could get so many Great Spies. I suppose Code of Laws is the first technology target to build a Courthouse and run a Spy Specialist as well as adopt Caste System to run many Artists. Then Alphabet for Spies. It seems it could work to run Spy Specialists and Artists in the same city, but then one would be dependent on luck which great person one preferred to get first (probably three great artists).

Sun Tzu Wu

Yup, Great Wall helps a lot! Add in a spy specialist and the National Epic, and it spits out Great Spies at a good rate (83% odds)
Only the first 2 Great Spies are guaranteed, after that you are at the whimsy of luck a little bit. Thankfully, all the needed :espionage: can be generated through the economy as needed.
And Great Artists are a dime a dozen if you commit to running Caste a while. Maybe if you have enough forests to chop to keep things going hmm

Also, it might not be necessary to give all 3 cities to the same AI either. Maybe spread them around to get more stolen techs and spread the -diplo spy penalties out.
Culture flip after conquest is so nice because you get the city back peacefully and can give it to someone else even.
On the slowest speeds, you could really pile up the free longbows heh. I think the odds are still 10% revolt chance per turn.

If you build the Oracle in one city close to the capital and Stonehenge in another early enough, you might only need the Great Artist from Music to get the 1st Legendary City started. Any extra great artists could just golden age or bump down the spy missions in a city from 80 down to 50.



Gilgamesh makes a lot more sense as a civ now too :D
So does the wonkey Civ coding that makes settling your cities close to each other anger the AI towards war.

Priesthood unlocks courthouses/ziggarauts.

He's cultural and protective.

Cheap castles give +1 trade route and +25%:espionage:, not to mention defense bonuses (The extra trade route also helps ensure the -20% trade routes bonus).
Engineering also gives Trebuchets for more conquered cities and especially +1 road movement (spies! <3). Goes great with this particular strategy.

I see he is in the current BTS Game of the Month hmm
 
Everything you said in the post above, I agree with except:

Not sure how much culture Stonehenge and The Oracle would provide for seed culture. I guess it depends on how soon they are built? Just not sure cities with this wonder would get to about the culture of a Great Work by the time Music is researched.

I'm more skeptical of Gilgamesh. He is not Philosophical which seems more important than the advantages he does have.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Everything you said in thd post above, I agree with except:

Not sure how much culture Stonehenge and Th Oracle would provide for seed culture. I guess it depends on how soon it is built? Just not sure cities with this wonder would get to about the culture of a Great Work by the time Music is researched.

I'm more skeptical of Gilgamesh. He is not Philosophical which seems more important than the advantages he does have.

Sun Tzu Wu

True true, but consider if the goal is to get half a Great Artist worth of culture in a seed city. Then you only need to run 14.4 extra spy missions and don't need a Great Artist.

The first Legendary city will need a Great Artist for sure since you won't have time to let it get culture on its own, but that's what reaching Music first is for.

The other 2 however...


Cultural means you start the whole game with +2:culture: per turn. This also lets you snag a wayward marble or stone faster than would otherwise be possible.

Throw in faster Libraries, faster Theatres, and a fast early wonder, and a city could just about almost reach half a Great Artists worth of culture by the time you are ready to gift the city away and start running spy missions.

Culture values double after 1000 years. (Mainly for the library and Oracle/Stonehenge. Everything else is too slow/late)

There isn't much difference between running 52 missions and 67 missions if the extra ones at the start only need the -10% wait bonus because they are so cheap. The extra missions will also kill off about 3 more spies too.



If cultural and protective seem underwhelming (and they kinda are), he has an insane early rushing unit and early access to courthouses. If he needs a holy city, he doesn't have to tech Code of Laws. Can just take someone else's holy city by force.
 
Ok, Kaitzilla, you convinved me.

The Oracle could use marble and Stonehenge could use stone. It would be better, if both wonders needed either just marble or just stone. I know I'm being picky. Sorry. So, even this Cultural Strategy is best done with both Stone and Marble. And we still need Copper for the Vultures, oops I'm getting ahead of myself.

Maybe Gilgamesh isn't so bad after all. I believe you missed that Ziggurats are also just 75% of the cost of normal Courthouses.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Ok, Kaitzilla, you convinved me.

The Oracle could use marble and Stonehenge could use stone. It would be better, if both wonders needed either just marble or just stone. I know I'm being picky. Sorry. So, even this Cultural Strategy is best done with both Stone and Marble. And we still need Copper for the Vultures, oops I'm getting ahead of myself.

Maybe Gilgamesh isn't so bad after all. I believe you missed that Ziggurats are also just 75% of the cost of normal Courthouses.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ya, it would be nice to have all those resources, but Oracle and Stonehenge aren't impossibly expensive if you don't have either.

Gilgamesh without copper is one sad panda though! :sad:
 
That argument doesn't hold water. Out of all possible tactics, the number that are competitively viable will always be limited. For example, prior to this submission, when was the last time someone used espionage as the fundamental driver for ANY victory condition in HoF ever, and had it be competitive? Maybe people find espionage fun?

That is a fair point. However, where people have been using, and enjoying using, a certain strategy for some considerable time, it would seem sad if they could no longer do so. That seems to add up to an argument for introducing the new espionage victory condition, so that people can enjoy using either strategy.

This line of thinking is also coming from shaky ground. Firaxis demonstrated clearly they were aware of this mechanic, given that they patched it out and in across the last few BTS patches done.

Firaxis broke and then restored the effectiveness of spread culture missions. You cannot deduce from that that they were aware that spread culture missions could, in addition to their traditional uses, be used to obtain a cultural victory in the manner that Kaitzilla has demonstrated.

It seems highly implausible to me that Firaxis intended the fastest way to win culture to be one that doesn't require building any cultural buildings. Why, if that was the intention, would all the mechanics to win culture by the traditional methods be in the game at all?

DynamicSpirit said:
Since Civ4 is no longer being maintained or patched, you could argue that puts additional responsibility of the HOF and GOTM teams to take action themselves to prevent or remove exploits and imbalances that would otherwise have been removed by Firaxis.
No SS, no. You are FLAGRANTLY wrong here.

It seems unlikely that a statement that starts 'you could argue that' followed by a value judgement could be wrong in any objective sense ;)

Firaxis did not design a game based around competitive HoF submissions. Your role and theirs are different. Do not try to be Firaxis, especially given how flawed they left some things.

What is the HOF mod? It's code that fills in stuff that Firaxis didn't do, but which needs to be done in order to run a competition! So fixing stuff that Firaxis haven't fixed is something we already do (admittedly, for security and UI, rather than for game mechanics). So I don't think you'd have much of a case for saying that in principle we should not 'try to 'be Firaxis' when it comes to fixing other things that Firaxis have missed.

I want to hear a good, competitive-balance reason that culture > espionage in the gameplay sense. Otherwise, it's functionally swapping one mechanic for another in terms of how you win one victory condition. It's not defensible to make a ban based on that alone.

I'm not sure what you'd count as a competitive-balance reason. In the end what I'm concerned with is trying to ensure that the (GOTM) competition remains fair and that as many people as possible can gain maximum enjoyment from it.

I suspect one problem is that, if you see the game as a mathematical problem to be solved in as few turns as possible, then you'll likely see the espionage tactic as being legitimate. If on the other hand, you see the game as an (admittedly, very imperfect) way to model the actual rise and fall of civilizations, then you're more likely to see the espionage tactic as an illegitimate exploit, and to feel cheated if your (traditional) culture victory is beaten by use of it. I would think both ways of looking at Civ are arguably equally valid (though personally I tend to see it in the latter way when I'm playing) - which is obviously a problem if they lead to opposite viewpoints.
 
By the way, I've started a thread in the GOTM forums aimed at seeking opinions on the GOTM side.

That's not necessarily relevant to HOF, as GOTM and HOF are separate competitions. What's appropriate for one competition isn't necessarily appropriate for the other, so it's possible GOTM may decide something different from HOF regarding espionage-culture. But the thread may be of interest nonetheless.
 
Firaxis broke and then restored the effectiveness of spread culture missions. You cannot deduce from that that they were aware that spread culture missions could, in addition to their traditional uses, be used to obtain a cultural victory in the manner that Kaitzilla has demonstrated.

I can't 100% guarantee they knew, but I'm pretty sure. While the speed at which kaitzilla managed this victory is new, the concept itself is not new. It dates back quite a few years ago; in fact I believe their patch work on this mechanic arose *because* of a specific CFC post highlighting the potential of this mission, and then they changed their mind after making it non-functional. I would have to go back and look at the old CFC posts when this mechanic was pointed out years ago. A submission like this has been 4 years coming or so. Regardless, it would be silly to assume the opposite and that the mechanic directly goes against their intent even more so.

It seems highly implausible to me that Firaxis intended the fastest way to win culture to be one that doesn't require building any cultural buildings. Why, if that was the intention, would all the mechanics to win culture by the traditional methods be in the game at all?

You could say this about things like modern armor, the time victory condition, and victory condition balance in general. Did firaxis intend for AP wins with 0 civs running the AP religion? They never changed it though. Did they intend for war to dominate in the base game to such a large extent that military requires absolute focus for survival in MP? Maybe, maybe not.

I'd be willing to accept the idea that they didn't realize that espionage could beat out pure :culture: for the :culture: victory condition, however I'd also posit that :culture: as a victory condition is imbalanced in the first place, requiring far fewer resources to win any anything but AP abuse (which is a quesitonable mechanic unto itself). I can win culture a good % of the time on deity with 3 cities if I can avoid war, mostly by mashing end turn. Was that intended too?

What is the HOF mod? It's code that fills in stuff that Firaxis didn't do, but which needs to be done in order to run a competition! So fixing stuff that Firaxis haven't fixed is something we already do (admittedly, for security and UI, rather than for game mechanics). So I don't think you'd have much of a case for saying that in principle we should not 'try to 'be Firaxis' when it comes to fixing other things that Firaxis have missed.

There is a difference between fixing things, and becoming the design team. If you change the game too much, HoF starts to become a new game. Virtually everything else banned are tactics that go beyond exploit and into the realm of "glitching out the game for advantages that circumvent the mechanics". Infinite techs and war success are a good example. I would argue that HoF's valid basis for banning such things is not that they're against developer intent (even though they probably are), but rather that they break competitive balance to an unplayable degree. I haven't seen any evidence that espionage breaks that competitive balance. It instead allows one mechanic to replace another for one VC...or possibly it's a new VC. That depends on your guys' choices.

I'm not sure what you'd count as a competitive-balance reason. In the end what I'm concerned with is trying to ensure that the (GOTM) competition remains fair and that as many people as possible can gain maximum enjoyment from it.

You could make either choice (new VC, letting EP = Culture win) and it would be "fair" insofar as it's a tactic that has been open to everyone across almost every BTS version and is reproduceable.

For competitive balance we're looking to avoid situations that overcentralize how the game is approached or glitch it out to the degree of trivializing player choice. I would argue that both culture and EP approaches are pretty centralized, but as STW pointed out the extra flexibility in a espionage based approach might actually make the faster finish times more competitively interesting as the tactics that can be a serious factor are more varied due to not having to commit almost from t0.

I suspect one problem is that, if you see the game as a mathematical problem to be solved in as few turns as possible, then you'll likely see the espionage tactic as being legitimate.

There is no denying the game is numbers at the fundamental level. That has been the winning approach to HoF for years, and not just in :culture:. Take Jesusin's :culture: guide however; he basically flat-out tells readers that doing some computation is necessary. He's right, too. Even "traditional" :culture: requires micro optimization and planning to reach the fastest times it can allow. How is that different from espionage then? In fact, planning/mathematics is a core element in strong play in this game. The vast majority of its mechanics are deterministic (combat being a rare exception). Farms are always 3 :food:. Grassland river mines are always 1:food: 3:hammers: 1:commerce: early on. Whipped population always counts the same, etc. That's how the game was designed.

If on the other hand, you see the game as an (admittedly, very imperfect) way to model the actual rise and fall of civilizations, then you're more likely to see the espionage tactic as an illegitimate exploit, and to feel cheated if your (traditional) culture victory is beaten by use of it.

This is one of the more absurd things to consider, and yet I see it argued often anyway lol. How would a "civilization" in real life "win" a culture victory? Civ truly was designed as a strategy game first. You see it in the fixed tech costs, in the tile yields, and in the consistent way the vast majority of the mechanics function, none of which model historical fluxuation whatsoever. You see it in 1 leader ruling for all of existence. RNG combat does a poor job of reflecting combat, but we don't have a tactical layer and so they chose that route (a mistake IMO). Regardless, the vast majority of the game's core mechanics, not to mention its premise of playing for victory conditions, have nothing to do with historical simulation. The ultimate victory in human civilization is survival and improvement of quality of life, but in civ we have pre-defined conditions.

Now, what does HoF do? It measures how quickly people reach victory conditions (turn count), or how high of a score they attain. These things are *not* historical simulation outcomes (I wonder what, say, Mongolia's score is right now :lol:), they are literally number goals, and you reach number goals via planning and doing some math. That does *not* change between "traditional" culture games and espionage culture games; only the output symbol and :hammers: investment is different between the two.
 
Woops, the -10% waiting bonus doesn't increase the odds of success at all. :blush:


0% wait also has 84% chance of success with multiple spies.

Should probably do the first doubling with no waiting then.
 
I've been watching this thread since I participated in this game (and got my butt kicked) :blush:
Just curious, could a limited number of spies be used to speed up an otherwise "traditional" cultural game? At least with my game, the last 30-40 turns was just waiting for culture to be add up 150 per turn. If planned out carefully, how competitive will "hybrid" strategy be? Assuming it is even viable.

If you have a big enough economy and decide midgame to go for a win with espionage-culture, it has a great chance of working.

But to be competitive with pure espionage-culture from the start? I don't think it can be except for maybe Quick Speed.
 
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