G-Major 116

[WastinTime]

I see you didn't even get Nationalism. I too skipped paper/edu/liberalism, but I got nationalism (for nationhood +25% esp.) and constitution (for jails). I've never had a reason to build a jail before! The extra tech seemed worth it. Running the research slider a bit longer to get +4 +50% espionage from the jail should pay off.

 

[Manco Capac]

Woah, is that the blink of a new era in HoF. Once 790 AD space victory and now pre-1000 AD cultural victory. Nice job.

@kaitzilla

You were worried Mansa would DoW; he would still plot towards even busy with a holy war. I recall we had this problem with Hatshegawa.

 

[WastinTime]

@staff : in case it's not obvious, I'll suggest you look into this tactic. I've got a couple good games started to see if this strategy was viable (or ban-able.) for the HoF in general (not just this gauntlet.) Kaitzilla beat me to it. I'd like to know if I shouldn't bother finishing my games.

 

[kossin]

Hahaha, nice Kaitzilla.

I was too lazy to ever try it out myself after SGOTM16 but I guess it can be done even faster seeing BC spaceships and such.

I don't think it should be banned (I never play these so take my opinion with a grain of salt). Maybe a change in category?

But then again, isn't the Inca filter off as well...

 

[Kaitzilla]

I should have a submission for this one. I'm using an 'outside the box' strategy, so I don't know if I will be competitive.

Yup, this post reminded me of what the Ducks did in SGOTM 16, and since you were "probably" doing it I got out a calculator to see why you thought it would be good.

Then my eyes got real big when I realized you only need 3 Great Artists and it was off to the races.

Sorry to steal your thunder!


I can still be beat though. Felt like I barely had any forests to work with. No stone either, just the more vital marble thankfully. And I ran out of gold around 500AD so my espionage slider really conked out with only 6 AI to get gold from.

My army died failing to take Hammy's capital after Wang suicide his big stack on it. This was after I fought off DeGaulle, and really made me nervous against a Mansa backstab.
And I lost the Parthenon city that was making a Great Person.
And those turns in Caste was a big blunder. Whipping a horde of spies is necessary in the later part of the game!
2 of the 3 legendary cities didn't have the -20% open borders bonus even though I closed borders with everyone but Mansa.
That right there would have saved a Great Spy worth of infiltration if I had figured out that bonus.
Forgot to build a +25% castle in my bureau capital because of the lack of stone too once I stole Engineering. Turns out I needed the 3 extra spies more anyway.

Maybe Darius can build a huge economy through conquest that won't need so many Great Spies which frees up certain bulbs and golden ages possibilities?

I'm sure a better map than shuffle, that golden age random event (maybe), or goody huts could also help.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ya, getting Nationalism after Music might have been a better idea.

Or maybe forget the entire Aesthetics->Literature->Drama->Music line and just focus on getting Nationalism instead. Not sure losing the free Great Artist and bulbing a Great Scientist is worth it, but you don't need Cathedrals or National Epic really and super early Philosophy is nice.

+4, +50%, and being able to make 2! citizens into spies is pretty darned good once you whip a Jail! Just need Constitution after Nationalism.

Not the mention the +25% civic that lets you draft units too. But the bureau civic is so strong with Scotland Yard

Not needing the Great Spies because your empire can naturally generate far beyond 400 per turn would really free up this strategy to not need Elizabeth.


I calculated that you only need 37,000 and 3 Great Artists to do this strategy, or 44,000 if you can't get the open borders -20% bonus, or closer to 50,000 if you don't have enough spies to try nearly 200 spread culture missions attempts (14% failure rate) at -50% wait bonus.

4 Great Spies infiltrating give 18,000 so the rest has to come from the empire. If the empire can generate more then you don't need so many Great Spies.

 

[Kaitzilla]

...
I chose a site 1 SE of the copper.

Spoiler :

I considered 2E of the copper to the the GrassCows in the BFC, but chose against it for two reasons:
1.) I wanted to deny DeGualle copper. This is a mistake. Dog Soldier vs Archer is 4.0 vs. 4.8. Dog Soldier vs. Axe is 4 vs 3.44. I often make this mistake. I did this in a BOTM (which I won with my best Xotm performance) and Axe rushed Pacal before he got BW to prevent him from spamming Holkens. Duh, Holken's take a beat down from axes.
2.) I wanted to have a better chance of getting the land with FPs south of this city site. By settling 2E of the copper, this opens things up for DeGaulle to grab some good land south of my 2nd city...

I kind of like 2E of where you settled on the riverside desert hill.

Behind the river, no one can take it from Sitting Bull. And it can produce 18 per turn at Size 8. Wouldn't get bronze, but you don't really need it.

I need to play Sitting Bull one of these days.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Inject Culture Espionage mission works exactly as intended. The designers were no doubt aware that Cultural Victories could be done in this manner. Exactly how is it exploitative in a game breaking manner? There is no technique for generating unbounded culture here. The necessary espionage is not so easy to generate. The spies cost huge amounts in hammers. The seed culture is generated in the traditional ways. This is the new proven method of winning early Cultural Victories.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

The culture mission has been broken, fixed, and broken again over the years. It's clearly not balanced (or something in the espionage system is not balanced) and not as the designers intended.

 

[WastinTime]

I can still be beat though. Felt like I barely had any forests to work with. No stone either, just the more vital marble thankfully. And I ran out of gold around 500AD so my espionage slider really conked out with only 6 AI to get gold from.

No doubt this is just the tip of the iceberg. When I wrote I probably wouldn't beat your game, I meant with the game I already started. I've been out of town for 12 days, so I only have time for the one game I started weeks ago (still not finished). My strategy was to have one culture city and 2 espionage, but now I see that 3 espionage is the way to go for ~500 AD finishes.

This strategy is so broken, you take everything that belongs in a culture game out of it. Even research is no longer very important, religions, wonders, stone/marble, NatEpic city, temples/monasteries/cathedrals, Hermitage, Sistine, FreeSpeech. Nothing is really needed with any urgency. You could probably beat old records with just Pottery (cottage) and Alphabet (spy). You could end the game with zero culture buildings except the free Palace you start with.

It was exciting exploring this new approach (using a Jail!), but now it just feels dirty. I had also started a Deity/Marathon game with a target of BC finish, but I think there should be a freeze on all of these style games until we get a ruling from the staff.

Maybe this is the birth of a new Victory Condition... EV, Espionage Victory.

 

[Kaitzilla]

It was exciting exploring this new approach (using a Jail!), but now it just feels dirty.

That's the 200 spy missions tainting your soul.


Yes, it robs the culture victory of its entire meaning.

Think of it as a mini space race.
How little army do you think you can get away with pushing the limits?
How fast can you grow your economy to fund your espionage empire?


Espionage Victory, I like that!


It's kind of funny how the culture bomb in the gifted city cements the -50% culture bonus no matter what the AI does and the infiltrate mission cements the -50% espionage spending bonus.
As long as you manage the -40% religion bonus correctly (ie build a monastery somewhere for a few missionaries you can't build while running Pacifism) and build tons of spies, you'll win sooner rather than later.

There is also the problem of the gifted cities having the AI put their entire army into, but you can close borders if that is about to happen and just spend a bit more espionage. The -20% trade routes bonus is nice but not critical.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No doubt this is just the tip of the iceberg. When I wrote I probably wouldn't beat your game, I meant with the game I already started. I've been out of town for 12 days, so I only have time for the one game I started weeks ago (still not finished). My strategy was to have one culture city and 2 espionage, but now I see that 3 espionage is the way to go for ~500 AD finishes.

This strategy is so broken, you take everything that belongs in a culture game out of it. Even research is no longer very important, religions, wonders, stone/marble, NatEpic city, temples/monasteries/cathedrals, Hermitage, Sistine, FreeSpeech. Nothing is really needed with any urgency. You could probably beat old records with just Pottery (cottage) and Alphabet (spy). You could end the game with zero culture buildings except the free Palace you start with.

It was exciting exploring this new approach (using a Jail!), but now it just feels dirty. I had also started a Deity/Marathon game with a target of BC finish, but I think there should be a freeze on all of these style games until we get a ruling from the staff.

Maybe this is the birth of a new Victory Condition... EV, Espionage Victory.

None of what you said above matters. You win cultural victory when you possess three cities with legendary culture. Players always used the fastest known method of getting this culture in the past to win #1 cultural games. Now Kaitzilla has demonstrated a faster method of winning cultural victories.

This is not an Espionage Victory. It is a cultural victory accelerated by the careful application of espionage. Skillful use of espionage to win all victory conditions earlier should be actively encouraged rather than discouraged.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The culture mission has been broken, fixed, and broken again over the years. It's clearly not balanced (or something in the espionage system is not balanced) and not as the designers intended.

The designers intended that an inject culture mission increase one's culture in the city by 5% of the total culture in the city. This is exactly how this mission is implemented right now. The only way that it was ever significantly broken is when its effect was divided by 100 twice in the 3.13 release, making the mission absolutely useless by increasing culture by 0.05%, even though the documentation still said culture would increase by 5%. All issues with the inject culture mission were fixed in 3.17.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

If you played one, you might realize how unbalanced it is, but if you do, consider yourself forewarned that it is a potential exploit that the staff should have no guilt about deciding to remove the games. I'm abandoning my games so they don't have to make that call. Kaitzilla's probably should stay as it was done without any evidence that it should be illegal. It certainly qualifies as a famous (infamous) game, so recording it in the permanent record seems justifiable.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

If you played one, you might realize how unbalanced it is, but if you do, consider yourself forewarned that it is a potential exploit that the staff should have no guilt about deciding to remove the games. I'm abandoning my games so they don't have to make that call. Kaitzilla's probably should stay as it was done without any evidence that it should be illegal. It certainly qualifies as a famous (infamous) game, so recording it in the permanent record seems justifiable.

We can all name dozens of things that are unbalanced in Civ 4 BtS, but espionage is not one of them. Even so, we don't ban merely unbalanced game elements, since doing so would cripple the game. We ban only those things that give away a victory for no effort. Leveraging espionage in a cultural victory does not make competition impossible. It just changes the nature of the competition. It also challenges the proponents of winning cultural games the tradional way to improve their games as well.

Using espionage to win Cultural Victory is simply a faster way to win it.

There is nothing exploitative here like getting infinite technologies from The Oracle/being first to Liberalism or getting unlimited liberation diplomatic bonuses while at war and having your enemy vote for your diplomatic victory.

There are many things we all personally don't like about this game, but we learn to live with the game as it is. I suggest you just try to live with it (the new method of winning a cultural victory).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The culture mission has been broken, fixed, and broken again over the years. It's clearly not balanced (or something in the espionage system is not balanced) and not as the designers intended.

Fixed? You mean that brief period in 3.13 when it operated at a 1/100 or so scale as right now? THAT was "fixed" to you, to have a completely worthless option?

This is not an Espionage Victory. It is a cultural victory accelerated by the careful application of espionage. Skillful use of espionage to win all victory conditions earlier should be actively encouraged rather than discouraged.

+1. So many "broken" tactics, not to mention Inca in the general tables, are allowed. Compared to settings allowed that are bona fide barriers to competition in HoF, espionage is fair and can be applied through the same basic skills that allow one to plan other victory conditions.

If you played one, you might realize how unbalanced it is, but if you do, consider yourself forewarned that it is a potential exploit that the staff should have no guilt about deciding to remove the games.

Actually, they would have to carry quite a bit. You're talking about a valid option working exactly as the designers placed it into the game. They probably didn't anticipate its usage potential, just as they didn't anticipate pre-AD space being possible. That doesn't mean it's reasonable (or even justifiable with the "spirit of HoF" that it claims) to ban what is for all intents and purposes a creative and groundbreaking application of intended mechanics.

I for one am very impressed, both with this application and the ideas that led to it in the SGOTM discussion. It's not often something new is found about a game so thoroughly explored to this point.

 

[WastinTime]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is an exciting new way to win the game. If it's allowed, I will accept it and use it. I'll use it in some of the XoTM's But I believe this will get banned in GoTM, SGoTM, HoF, etc.

It's similar to the (now removed) feature of self-voting for Domination/Religious victory. But even that is nothing in comparison. At least with self-voting, you need to do some of the work to achieve the goal in the way it was intended.

Espionage allows you to win by circumventing everything. It's not "leveraging espionage" to support a culture win. You can literally go from Zero culture in three cities to all Legendary in one turn.

I don't want to argue about it. I don't care what decision they make, I'm just trying to get one made. It seems a temporary ban while it is investigated is wise. Let the XoTM community experience a couple of these 'victories' and see how it pans out over there.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You might not want to argue about it, but you are making a very clear position on it all the same yourself.

You don't circumvent "everything", your issue is that espionage is apparently a more efficient conversion of resources than direct culture.

Put another way, how many other victory conditions are going to feel the impact from this aside from culture? Religious 100% for certain won't. UN likely won't, aside from the civic swap tricks we've already seen when necessary (mostly people pick leaders so it isn't). Domination and conquest? Espionage was likely a factor already, but the tradeoff there isn't nearly as clear (you can't get an extended tech lead with espionage, and flipping cities is slow and costly compared to taking them with units).

That leaves culture and *maybe* space, although from what I can see space would make only marginal use of it and it wouldn't alter the way people approach the game materially since the human often runs away to the point of gifting the AI techs just so it has something useful it might be able to trade, maybe.

So, you're basically against espionage because it replaces one wonky mechanic (culture) with another. But this isn't a glitch by any means; it's a fixed mechanic the devs put back into the game deliberately. It is ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous, to say that this is a broken mechanic and then turn around and run huts/events in the game. Just because espionage is the fastest route to culture by far doesn't mean it cheapens the HoF, and this is an avenue in which people can compete directly just as any other.

You are basically saying the spread culture mission is overpowered. Like it or not, that's what the argument is boiling down to for you; compared alternative means of generating , espionage is demonstrably faster.

Temp ban my foot. There's nothing here to ban, just a more efficient means of victory in one victory condition. You think it's overpowered? I think Quechas and tech trading is overpowered, and they both are. That doesn't change the reality of their inclusion in HoF, which was intended to be a competition to achieve the best possible results, wasn't it? Someone just put together an improved methodology; the first thought should not be "consider banning it!"

1. What objective guidelines are there for banning tactics?
2. How does this tactic fall within those guidelines?

No logical answer = no justification for banning it, even temporarily.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Everyone doesn't get why WastinTime is so upset yet.

Every single HOF culture record can trivially be broken using this method.

If it takes root, culture records as we know them will be buried under mountains of spy goo.

Classic Jesusin games will no longer be on the front page. Is that what we really want?


I agree that BC culture is possible on marathon now on a setting other than Settler too.

Unlike WastinTime, I have no conscious

Upsize atomic bombs into hydrogen bombs? Done! Imma try to refine the strategy even further.

Spoiler :

On a game setting Jesusin doesn't own

 

[shulec]

Excellent game Kaitzilla!

The lines are drawn. I have no wish to debate this with the arguers, as it will be a type of experience.

I will admit that methods Kaitzilla used are totally legal. However, I wish to see this technique banned based on the effect it will have on competitive culture games. I find it to exploitative, and (innocently), not in the spirit of the HoF.