G-Major 144

[WastinTime]

How are you building the workboats?

I've got my capital and Moai city making some. Workboats are not the bottleneck. It's getting the settlers out to the islands and expand borders.

 

[WastinTime]

Wow! All on the river, including the corn. Now what? That confuses the REX plans. Build Qs or grow and work gems? Seems like it would be good to capture another city asap to pump out Qs.

Better mine quick before jungle spread.

Yea, that start should be amazing, but you need to make some adjustments. For example, you only have 6 hammers at size 6 and +6 food, so you'll need to whip.

Only 2 gem tiles are in danger of jungle, so you might want to put Q's on there, but you've already got a shortage of them. Hmm.... Maybe just block the east one and gamble on the other.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yea, that start should be amazing, but you need to make some adjustments. For example, you only have 6 hammers at size 6 and +6 food, so you'll need to whip.

Only 2 gem tiles are in danger of jungle, so you might want to put Q's on there, but you've already got a shortage of them. Hmm.... Maybe just block the east one and gamble on the other.

Would you build the first worker or risk stealing one in time?

 

[WastinTime]

Would you build the first worker or risk stealing one in time?

no debate. You can't even consider wasting 30 turns on a worker. If you can't steal a worker, move on to the next map.

 

[LowtherCastle]

no debate. You can't even consider wasting 30 turns on a worker. If you can't steal a worker, move on to the next map.

Kinda makes it a painful get from MF, having to gamble. That also goes against protecting the jungle growth. Would you even pop the hut? Or just go straight for a nearby AI? IF you popped experience, take Woodie II for the the faster movement? Or CoverCRI to capture a city?

It's already T3. Looks like Katizilla snooped around more than necessary with the settler. Maps might be good for finding the nearest AI too.

What sort of strategy do people use to find an Ai's worker asap? Dumb luck?

So what would your basic plan be? Somewhat slower REX counterbalanced by much faster research?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Yea, that start should be amazing, but you need to make some adjustments. For example, you only have 6 hammers at size 6 and +6 food, so you'll need to whip.

Only 2 gem tiles are in danger of jungle, so you might want to put Q's on there, but you've already got a shortage of them. Hmm.... Maybe just block the east one and gamble on the other.

I leapt into it right away to see how bad I'd mess it up.
Went right for whipping and improving the gems in danger of jungle first, ya.

First victim was Willem to the south whom I was very lucky to steal a Worker from. (Improving 2nd city that early is rare, and borders pop fast with cultural civ.)
Sadly, all his cities were hilltop and had no corn/wheat/rice.

Spoiler :

2nd victim was Liz.
Her capital was also hilltop, and both cities had terrible resources in inner ring.

Spoiler :

3rd was Frederick. (All these good guys hurting my diplo -.-)
Improving bronze on Turn 34, you naughty boy!
What followed was 50 turns of choking by 1 Quechua who refused to stop fortifying on top of the bronze tile. (Couldn't afford any more diplo hits to CeaseFire and DOW again)

Spoiler :

Weirdly lucky to bump into 3 Workers so easily, but all 3 either had hilltop capitals or enjoyed whipping Archers in their capital.
Feeling despair, I found my 4th AI Mansa to the northwest.

Spoiler :

Then with utter relief, DeGaulle to the north!
Even better, his fat 2nd city only killed 1 Quechua taking it, and his capital and hilltop 3rd city were only guarded by 1 Archer each.
3 cities for 3 dead Q's. ^_^
I don't mind waiting anymore for Deity AI cities to grow to Size 2.
The 300 hammers are worth it if they have a 3 food source since their Deity food bin is 44 on Size 1 I think.

Spoiler :

With enough Checkers, you can sort of force enemy Archers to stop onto flatland and die.
Went ahead and chopped 2 of my 4 capital forests into 4 Quechuas to go conquer Germany.

Spoiler :

After France, I went back to Germany.
I flooded his land with Quechuas and noticed his 2nd city had a Settler, so I pulled all the Quechuas out of his borders to let it out.
After it took 2 Archers with it to settle a new city for me, I pounced on the capital with 10 Quechuas from France and the capital.
I had good battle results just like with France, and ended up with all of Germany.

Spoiler :

Roaded up to Mansa and then from Mansa to France using Mansa's roads.
Still won't spread Hinduism to me for some reason.
My stolen cities focused on producing 30 hammers, then getting a 60 hammer chop and 1-pop whipping a Granary to expand borders and grow.
France itself it trying to Rex using 2 chops, the Granary, and 2-pop whips since it has so many good city spots nearby.
Gold city was founded just east of France.
Some day it will have 10 food and 4 desert gold mines if I can win the culture battle against Mansa.

Spoiler :

I'll also get a good supply of marble settling southeast of France.
The Dutch have the only supply of Stone I can see, but their hilltop cities remain formidable and they are the only AI who have Alphabet, so DOW'ing them will just get me dogpiled.

Spoiler :

Capital went ahead and 2-pop whipped a Granary and 3-pop whipped a Library.
Will try to Oracle Currency since Judaism was just founded and I'm still struggling to get Math.
Civil Service is just too far since I teched Mining->Bronze Working->The Wheel->Fishing (Hey, the 20% research bonus for Pottery makes this tech cost like 100 beakers)->Pottery->Writing.

Spoiler :

Found Egypt(weak) and Justinian(just got Axes) to the west of France, so wondering if I should attack Egypt next and get 2 more cities and raze the terrible 3rd one.
I could make 2 City Raider III Axes, or settle my Great General.
Not sure yet.

Spoiler :

 

[Kaitzilla]

Turn 300.

84 workers, 102 cities + several settlers + 6 colony cities.
I'm making +300 gpt cus I can't seem to hook up the seafood fast enough. I only have about 60 resources, so I need to at least triple that--possibly quadruple. My test maps had 195-250 resources, but it doesn't feel like mine has that many. I hope to be pleasantly surprised as I explore the oceans. If I have less than 200 my head will explode.

Congratulations.
That is insane to have 100 cities by Turn 300 and so many Workers.

Good luck on Sushi and the follow-through.

 

[WastinTime]

sounds like a textbook start Kait. I like fishing too as long as you have a couple water tiles--which you do. It's a must-have if you're fortunate enough to capture a city with already netted seafood.

I'm wondering if you've neglected exploring, or more to the point, finding Gandhi/Asoka and preventing them from building Oracle. At least you can keep an eye on Mansa who obviously has Poly. Maybe the fact that the Celts got Meditation first will help you prevent Oracle elsewhere.

 

[Kaitzilla]

sounds like a textbook start Kait. I like fishing too as long as you have a couple water tiles--which you do. It's a must-have if you're fortunate enough to capture a city with already netted seafood.

I'm wondering if you've neglected exploring, or more to the point, finding Gandhi/Asoka and preventing them from building Oracle. At least you can keep an eye on Mansa who obviously has Poly. Maybe the fact that the Celts got Meditation first will help you prevent Oracle elsewhere.

I'm leaving Oracle up in the Civ gods' hands.
If nobody techs Alphabet soon or I can't get it whipped before the AI, so be it.

But if I get Priesthood and Oracle isn't built yet, the chops will be ready and the marble settled on top of.


I'm not sure I'm good enough to spot an AI building Oracle, then assemble and invade that city with enough Q's to matter on such a huge map.
I have neglected exploring though.
Get so excited and caught up that I frequently forget unless I take breaks between playing.

 

[Kaitzilla]

What sort of strategy do people use to find an Ai's worker asap? Dumb luck?

This kind of thing could be talked about all day.
First, check your x,y co-ordinates after you settle your capital and see where you are. (Not sure why Buffy .004 didn't fix this)

Study the map you are playing in world builder.
Big + Small huge map with Tropical and Massive Continents tends to have one continent stretched left to right mostly jungle, or just a big fat circle with lots of forests and moderate jungle.
Most AI will be settled on the coast, so after the 1st AI just follow the coast.

Another part of studying the map in world builder is noticing the layout pattern of AI in general and huts as well.
You start to recognize that they don't bunch up and are distributed pretty evenly.
Huts seem to love rivers in my imaginings, so I follow them when I can.

Probably the biggest help is to take note of Scouts and where/when they appeared.
If DeGaulle's scout appears from the northwest on Turn 11, France is to the northwest direction 10 or 20 tiles away (usually).

Zooming out and checking culture map each turn is very important also.


Now for stealing Workers.
For the 1st Worker steal, Workers leave forests and jungles alone, so I'll zoom in on the black fog and look for edges forests to ignore and focus on heading towards open spaces that might contain a resource a Worker might be improving.

Careful study by TachyWaxon revealed that Workers like to road to and road a resource before improving it.
They also like to road between cities and connect them.
Wheat/Corn/Rice seems most likely to be improved first.
I'll prowl around the borders of the capital in the direction towards where the first two cities connect whenever possible.
If no Workers are spotted, I'll tend to camp a resources like Wheat/Corn/Rice waiting for a Worker to show up or camp where the 2 cities would connect if a Worker was building a road.

Pay close attention to border pops the capital does at T15 and T150.
There's something of an art to stealing Workers that you learn over time, it's hard to explain fully.
Cultural civs are usually a waste of time with their crazy border pops.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Kaitzilla, I would give the gold city to Mansa, so he can research very fast for you.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Kaitzilla, I would give the gold city to Mansa, so he can research very fast for you.

That would be a very bold move!
I'll have to give it some thought.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Curious about what this new strategy is. A few years ago I was playing around with bulbing Theo and Oracling Paper with Suleiman for fast Janissaries. Even pulled it off on deity once where it paid off really well, as Theo came with huge trade value. (Not sure if Oracle Paper is doable without Philo leader though.) In a game where Civil Service and Bureau doesn't matter much, maybe Oracle Theo, then Paper->Edu could give you faster Oxford?

WastinTime's secret strategy is endlessly fun to ponder with the various hints.

I've too thought about the details around bulbing Theology with a Great Prophet and then Oracling Paper. (Great Prophet has just enough to fully bulb Theology on huge/deity)
The benefits aren't immediately apparent, but consider what comes after.

First, the Inca start with Mysticism and are Industrious, so an absurdly early chopped/built Stonehenge isn't impossible.
It is a nice wonder to get +2 Great Prophet points and energize early Quechua conquests.

If a source of Marble could be found, then the Inca can go up the Aesthetics->Literature line. (Literature requires Polytheism)
Shwedagon Paya costs 1350 and gets double production with a source of Gold. (+2 Great Prophet points, civ can choose any religion)
Once built, the civ can revolt to Pacifism and get +8 Great Prophet points and race towards a Great Prophet for Theology.
Or, the civ can run 2 Scientists in the Stonehenge city and gamble with a 50% Great Prophet/50% Great Scientist.


As soon at it is possible to trade for Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Masonry, Monotheism, and a Great Prophet becomes available, then bulb Theology and Oracle Paper.

At this point, while teching towards Literature, it should be possible to trade maps with civs to try and get a circumnavigation bonus or a hint towards where to sail a workboat next.
+1 ship movements so early is very helpful.

Also, the 1500 Hagia Sophia is worth keeping in mind.
50% faster Workers mean forests can be chopped 50% faster for fail gold or units.

The main reason to do all this is that after Oracling Paper in 2000BC?, earlier??, is that the next two Great Scientist bulbs will go into Education once Math is acquired.
The Great Library (1050) combined with the National Epic (750) and another city completing Shwedagon Paya for Pacifism will give 9*3=27 Great People points per turn. (89% scientist, 11% Artist)
Running 2 Scientist Specialists increases this to 15*3=45 Great people points per turn (93% Great Scientist, 7% Artist).
The 2nd and 3rd Great People will take 600/45 and 900/45 (13+20)turns and presto, double bulbed Education.

Might have to ignore Pyramids and Hagia Sophia to get it done, but an absurdly early Education seems possible on paper by skipping Code of Laws, Currency, and Civil Service.
Relies on lots of forest to chop, stolen workers, Gold, Marble, and a few AI getting Alphabet before 2000BC and trading religious techs.
Not sure if 3 Great People to get Education by 1600??BC would be worth it, but Oxford (1200, double speed with Stone) has +1 Great Scientist point and allows 3 more Scientist specialists to be run if it could be built in the Great Library city.
75 Great People Points per turn running 5 Scientist Specialists and Pacifism (96% Scientist, 4% Artist) is a lot!
Further Great Scientists could be useful for Printing Press and Chemistry and Scientific Method.

Of course, running without Organized Religion to reduce build costs, especially for 8 Universities, would be daunting.
Would certainly need Forges, but it might be too early to have them yet.

**Edit**
Oh, I see what you are saying EliteTroops.
Oracle Theology and then bulb Paper.
That would be a good way to mix 2 Scientists with the Stonehenge city.
50% Great Prophet/Great Scientist.
If Great Prophet, get Meditation and the other religious techs, bulb Theo, Oracle Paper.
If Great Scientist, get religious techs (don't need Meditation), Oracle Theology, bulb Paper after getting Math+Alphabet.

No Org. Religion hurts.
Maybe Parthenon for the +50% Great People Points instead of Shwedagon for the Pacifism.

 

[Pangaea]

That can be a strong strategy, provided you get Currency from the AI in time. However, if he was truthful, we know this isn't what WT did, because he said he badly needed Currency, so Oracled that.

If I recall correctly, he said he started coastal, so whether it's part of his secret or not, he must have built the GLH early and got out at least a few island settlers for better internal trade routes. That can at least partly explain the absurdly high research so early.

Paya for early Pacifism is a good shout, which also Sun Tzu Wu mentioned earlier. However, I would think that early on it's better to run OR to spread religion and build buildings faster, before changing to Paci later when you are ready to run the first golden age. You need religion in your cities to gain the benefit after all, and you can't always rely on the AI doing the legwork for you.

 

[Folket]

I'm not convinced. It seems like Oxford city will only be 10% of research from the massive empire. I do not see it win over currency.

But the idea to couple Oxford with NE to get GS faster is a good idea.

Perhaps there is something about an earlier switch to caste system and representation to grow pop and get research.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agreed. Oxford University is not worth it, unless you have an absolutely specular Commerce capital that just has to have Bureaucracy and OU. However, it may not be worth it even then, since you should have close to 20 cities by t150 and a 100 cities by t300.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm trying to give Mansa Musa a city, but he says he's not willing to trade it. It is only 7-8 plots orthoganlly from one of his cities far from his Capital, so it is well within the usual 9.5 plot radius.

Mansa Musa is researching at 50% slider with a 63 Wpt profit. His capital has nearly every building he can build plus Notre Dame and Mozilla Statues. He is a vassal of Washington.

He does not appear to be in financial distress; He has just ten cities. Why is he unwilling to take the gift of a new city?

 

[Seraiel]

AIs in FIN-distress are less willing to accept cities. I don't know the exact mechanics when AIs take cities, but know that financial distress plays a role. I think I read somewhere that an AI calculates if a city generates benefit or if it's a drain on an empire's economy. AIs always take every city if they have 3 cities or less.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks for your response, Seraiel!

I don't think its financial stress, but I could be wrong. The city is on an island with no resources, just like the one Mansa Musa settled 7-8 plots away. It is also far from his Capital too. Maybe those figure into the AIs calculation on whether they will accept a gift city.

 

[elitetroops]

TI don't think its financial stress, but I could be wrong. The city is on an island with no resources, just like the one Mansa Musa settled 7-8 plots away. It is also far from his Capital too. Maybe those figure into the AIs calculation on whether they will accept a gift city.

Iirc, the 9 tiles rule only applies to cities on the same landmass. Cities on other landmasses will only be accepted if they have less than 4 cities.