G-Major I

[da_Vinci]

I've been playing Pangaea and I see no reason to switch to Great Plains.

Well, I had one Pangea map end up being thin ribbons of land spiraling amid lots of ocean ... it played like archepelago (that was a terribly slow G minor 1 try).

Did much better on an inland sea ... which might have the advantages of pangea without the risk of those snaky wet ribbons of land?

dV

 

[Slick_]

Tried this one for the first time now too, Siam on Pangea.
Start went pretty well, had Incense and found most AIs early. First wave of RA was fine but after that I really went into trouble with missing time to block for 2nd wave and broke ai for anything after that. Using Scientific Revolution plus Oxford plus one saved GS for the last 4 techs worked out pretty well though, but I'm not totally sure if those two techs are really worth picking the piety tree last.

 

[walkerjks]

Guiding the RA chain to Archaeology while you push Machinery does seem to be the way to go. The Opera House goes up a lot later than I'd like that way, but the quick Louvre means your GE isn't standing around waiting, you can actually build stuff with the Ironworks, and you get the Aqueduct up early so you can pop boom the capital.

Definitely think that is the way to go. RA to Archeology (hopefully picking up Acoustics at a reasonable time - does anyone block Banking to guarantee Acoustics earlier?) and bulb the bottom half, primarily focusing on earliest possible Ironworks.

There are still so many variables in the game that are hard to control (meaning you don't discover them until late - as opposed to starting location, which controls number of variables like luxuries, monastery bonus, and capitol production). How broke are the AIs? How many cultural CSs do you find (or even exist)? Getting done with tech around turn 165-170 seems crucial for a very fast win, but that simply isn't possible in most games (turns 180-195 seem "normal" in a focused game with an average start). And you won't know that until turn 80 or 90.

 

[FiveAces]

Well my first Siam game wasn't too bad - t231. At my last social policy I was producing something like 660cpt. I made two huge blunders though. I miscounted the number of RA's I had remaining, so I ended up 1 short and could only bulb to telegraph. I had to research radio by hand which delayed the BT by 20t. Second one I miscounted the number of CS I met and only found 15 before I stopped searching. If the last one was cultural... and also no coal, so could have improved a few turns with that.

1 city + tradition. I got Philo and my 3rd SP (I didn't push a monument) on the same turn, so free early temple. I was tempted to run a GA for a very early landmark, but talked myself into the triple pop written about earlier.

opened scout-worker-granary-warrior-SH-monument-lib(buy)-NC-oracle
pottery-mining-masonry-calendar-writing-philo

Those of you skipping Patronage - I was gifted an early GA about 10t after I decided to take Edu Elite before opening Freedom. Also got 2 GM and a late GE (manufactory for Utopia).

I played Great Plains. Not a stellar start - 1 incense, cotton and marble, 3 wheat. RA to Arch and then to Machinery. Didn't push the mid-game RA's (bribed CS and used the patronage research boost to help offset) and ended up with telegraph around t180.

Will try again and hopefully remember how to count.

 

[Neuro]

May I assume you meant Turn 231? 131 seems a bit far-fetched, plus you mention turn 180 later in your report.

 

[FiveAces]

May I assume you meant Turn 231? 131 seems a bit far-fetched, plus you mention turn 180 later in your report.

Oops yes of course. t231 Told you i couldn't count!

 

[Martin Alvito]

(hopefully picking up Acoustics at a reasonable time - does anyone block Banking to guarantee Acoustics earlier?)

If possible. I rarely am able to do so, because Acoustics and Banking land in the second wave of RAs after I tech at least Currency. I hit the RAs hard while they are still cheap and the cost remains balanced. 350+ RAs are killers.

There are still so many variables in the game that are hard to control

Seriously. In rough order of importance:

- AI cash (paramount)
- Coal (6-8 turns)
- Oracle (5-6 turns)
- Presence of Cultural city-states (about 3 turns each)
- Speedy Broadcast Tower acquisition (about 1 turn per every 5 you are late)
- Fast Cristo (about 1 turn per every 6 you are late)
- Fast Hermitage (about 1 turn per every 10 you are late, plus whatever time you lost to slow pre-req buildings)
- Timing Scientific Revolution right (up to 1 turn lost)

That doesn't even address the things that you can roll at start like sufficient luxury spawns and acceptable output.

If everything comes together, you can probably go sub-210. Sub-200 isn't possible unless I'm missing something big or someone catches a six luxury start with non-broke AIs.

Those of you skipping Patronage - I was gifted an early GA about 10t after I decided to take Edu Elite before opening Freedom. Also got 2 GM and a late GE (manufactory for Utopia).

This is a losing bet. Early Constitution slaps an extra Landmark silly, and there's no guarantee of getting an Artist.

 

[FiveAces]

This is a losing bet. Early Constitution slaps an extra Landmark silly, and there's no guarantee of getting an Artist.

I'm not sure I agree with the first part of your statement. At that point in the game, you have 30? cpt base? And you are 10t? in between SP's? And you will have only 1 extra pre-FS SP? So taking EE instead of opening Freedom is maybe 5-600 culture cost? The extra landmark is 6*10t+12*100?t+6*however many turns you have Hermitage and 6*BT turns plus maybe a Sistine multiplier = a whole lot more total culture than getting Constitution 10t or so earlier. Even if you are at 60cpt base at the time it's still not close.

As to the second, a GS will save Porcelain or bulb something else for 5-10t saved depending on your closing RA timing, a GE can build Porcelain (or Cristo if you won't be able to pop one in time). Only a GM or no GP at all during the period is clearly inferior to earlier Constitution, and if you only get a GM it still buys ~2 CS allies which helps offset the loss.

 

[vexing]

lately i've been trying tradition/liberty/patronage/freedom/piety. i can't justify rationalism for just the 2 techs and minor GA compared to educated elite. it makes RAs and GS production more important.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I'm not sure I agree with the first part of your statement. At that point in the game, you have 30? cpt base? And you are 10t? in between SP's? And you will have only 1 extra pre-FS SP?

To get EE in time for four GP spawns you are taking at least three SPs that I am not taking before Constitution. What this means is that you are taking three extra SPs at the non-discounted rate, plus giving up about 1000 Culture. You're also giving up 500-750 that you could have spent on Research Agreements unless you got lucky with barb hut spawns, in which case you're only out 250.

The problem is that the expected value on EE doesn't come anywhere near to making that up. If you snag an extra GE for an early Sistine, you'll cover it. If you snag a Great Artist early enough, you'll come close. But a GS is strictly worse than a Merchant until about turn 130, and there's always the possibility of pulling a useless GG/Khan.

Outperforming fast Constitution/FS and Rationalism (two good, quick GP spawns that are better than 2x GS) with EE is a less than 50% proposition. The math starts looking a lot less ugly on Deity, where the investment in an ally doesn't hurt as badly and the returns on Scholasticism are much greater. I'll grant that the absolute fastest possible theoretical time would require EE, but you're already chasing so much stuff that's out in the tail of the distribution that lowering the probability of having everything come together doesn't seem like a hot idea.

 

[Neuro]

Martin is absolutely correct. Constitution and Free Speech are by far the most important goals to push for. When you hit Astronomy, you immediately start filling in the Freedom tree to Free Speech, then switch back to Patronage.

EE is more of a bonus type policy. If you get a GA/GS/GE, it's good. If not, you either get gold or a golden age out of it. But it's not worth holding off constitution and free speech for.

 

[vexing]

my 221 win took educated elite before opening freedom tree. it's not a hard fast rule that you need to push into renaissance and get freedom immediately for optimal results, there are other considerations.
in my specific case, i had bought 8 policies before renaissance, the 9th i could have taken educated elite or started freedom.

as a result of chooseing ee first my policy #11 suffered from lack of constitution (at worst 537.5 culture lost - i had at least one cultural ally so it was less)
#12 suffered from lack of freedom, so 315 lost. all in all that amounts to at most 2 turns at the end, compared to probably one additional great person total, first gp 30ish turns sooner.

 

[Tabarnak]

Early Hermitage is vital.

I gave it a shot today(3-4 starts) and played differently each game. I noticed something in my last game(1st cultural attempt since i have the game so it may be a weird approach).

Siam. I hard built SH, then NC around turn 55. Then GL and finally Oracle. I signed 5 RAs turn 56 and got Archeology turn 86. Oracle popped at same time. RA chains are so strong lol. Never imagined such thing before

I guess Freedom is the next path. I have a GE and i can trade a second wave of luxuries. Is it good to reach Hermitage at that point? What to do next?

If i buy a museum, do i use GE for Hermitage or i keep him for Louvre? And why Louvre? For golden ages?

If i can have Hermitage and Constitution around turn 90, is it good or bad at that point?

If i have enough money, should i buy a wat also? Keep money for another RA wave(if AI have some gold) or begin to ally more cs?

I stopped playing because i forgot to wait for Philo before taking Legalism but continued until turn 87 just to see how it goes.

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[Martin Alvito]

it's not a hard fast rule that you need to push into renaissance and get freedom immediately for optimal results, there are other considerations.

The claim isn't that success using EE is impossible. It's that on average you will do worse with EE. Every once in a while you will do significantly better, but in most games you are better off going for fast Constitution/FS and playing Rationalism rather than Patronage.

If you don't mind that and you're willing to play a lot of games without result in order to get lucky and get the improbable game, take EE. I'm just thinking that the odds of having everything come together to push sub-210 are very poor as it is, and introducing another luck factor to the equation is unwise.

If i buy a museum, do i use GE for Hermitage or i keep him for Louvre? And why Louvre? For golden ages?

You can't buy a Museum without Acoustics for an Opera House. The result is that turn 90 Hermitage is impossible. What you want to do is burn the GE on the Louvre early to get that out of the way. The Louvre gives you two fast Landmarks, which will be more helpful post-Hermitage. But you want to get that thing out of the build order.

If i can have Hermitage and Constitution around turn 90, is it good or bad at that point?

Turn 90 Constitution is pretty normal. Earlier would be better if possible. The best I've managed was around turn 80. That would have been a crazy finish if I hadn't been unable to block Metallurgy and Rifling.

If i have enough money, should i buy a wat also? Keep money for another RA wave(if AI have some gold) or begin to ally more cs?

I find that I never have the money to buy a building or ally a city-state until the endgame, even with 4-5 luxuries. YMMV.

 

[KingMorgan]

Banking is the thorn in my side right now, hard tech it and you lose the lower part of the tree, leave it and you'll pop it at the expnsense of the upper tree.

I think sub 200 is possbile with the "perfect storm", hitting that 500 gold wonder on t4/5 has set some exciting games up.

 

[vexing]

The claim isn't that success using EE is impossible. It's that on average you will do worse with EE. Every once in a while you will do significantly better, but in most games you are better off going for fast Constitution/FS and playing Rationalism rather than Patronage.

the thing i dislike is getting renaissance with your first batch of RAs guarantees you're paying the +100 premium on at least a few in the second set. on the other hand if you spread out your first set to capture both machinery and education, you get the early ironworks and can potentially save enough on the premium that rush buying the museum is possible when you get acoustics and archaeology with second set. i suspect rush buying museum isn't an issue for you though...

i'm sure the winning game will be your style - you must be getting to constitution-freedom with #7-8 policies vs my 11-12, which totals maybe a 3000 culture difference, and the earlier louvre can't hurt too much... but i am stubborn and cheap, so i'll keep trying my style.

 

[Tabarnak]

Alright i understand. What if i bulb chivalry and education with RAs. What tech the next RA bulb usually? Banking or Acoustics?

Edit : I guess i need to see how multiple gp spawn work also. All i have to do is see if all of them are reaching the birth point at same time?

 

[walkerjks]

Alright i understand. What if i bulb chivalry and education with RAs. What tech the next RA bulb usually? Banking or Acoustics?

Edit : I guess i need to see how multiple gp spawn work also. All i have to do is see if all of them are reaching the birth point at same time?

50/50 on banking versus acoustics as far as I can tell. Though by that time, I usually still have archeology (or navigation? I can't recall when exactly I open up chivalry) available as a 3rd option.

GP will spawn at the same time at the same point cost assuming that they are both (or all three) spawning that turn and are in the same city. It's not too hard with just a temple and workshop to get a GE/GA dual spawn at 100 and then again at 300. A windmill helps get the second spawn to happen a bit earlier (otherwise you will likely have to put your artist specialists on hold for a few turns while engineer points catch up).

 

[Martin Alvito]

i suspect rush buying museum isn't an issue for you though...

I am always way too broke to rush a Museum. If I get unusually good cash flow and poor then I may rush an Opera House.

 

[ntr0py]

How many scouts do you guys get early and when?
I'm starting to be convinced that you need to find all 7 enemies asap. In my recent game I could get 7 RA on the first batch.

Does anyone pick high sealevel. Does it make the map smaller?