G-Minor 208

[Sun Tzu Wu]

When relying/gambling on the cities revolting back to you, can't that take quite a long time? It's pretty rare in normal games at least, so does this 'flipping' option and so much culture mean they flip very easily?

It sounds so based on what you write above

I had one LC city flip to me three times before it went Legendary. Another flipped twice. And the third flipped once, a turn before I planned to capture it, ending the game in an Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory. I had only about 40 spies, slowly injecting culture into the LC cities, one at a time, so they were actually city flipping at the same high rate.

If the Injection of Culture is done rather slowly in the end game, peaceful city flipping can handle LC1 and even LC2 somewhat reliably. Military forces will need to capture the LC3 city when it goes Legendary, since there is no way a 10% revolt and even less chance of flipping LC3 an be counted on occurring that very same turn. It did happen in my very first ESCV game, but I don't expect to get LC3 as early as possible, peacefully ever again.

Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory (EACV) is still very new, because very few players were willing to play them without a clear separation from the Traditional Cultural Victory. Despite how early some of the EACV finished, especially Marathon with Inca, we are very far from a truly optimized strategy for EACV games.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My second game is going far better than my first game:

The start had dry Grassland Corn, 7 Floodplains, one of which must be settled on, 5 BFC forests, 3 Ring 3 forests, 2 Riverside PH Gold and a Riverside DH Gold. Upon settling, a Ring 2 Grassland Pig was found. Exploring and further research/trades discovered Ring 3 Horses, Silk and 2 Fur plus Ring 4 Copper.

Technology path:

Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Writing -> Alphabet

Traded for Mysticism, Polytheism, Hunting, Archery, and Bronze Working.

Researched Horseback Riding to do a Horse Archer rush. Built Barracks and Stable and four Horse Archers in London; captured Hannibal's closest city losing one of those four HAs and one HA from the Copper City. Got 70W for Peace Treaty. Really wanted Hannibal's capital with a PH Gold, but that will have to await completion of Library in the capital and additional HAs.

After the Library, I need to build a Settler going to my back area for a city site on a PHF that has Ring 1 Cow, Marble and Iron!

Someone gave me Buddhism in all three of my cities. I was hopping to have more cities through conquest.

Currency -> Code of Laws

Gandhi completed The Oracle for Theology.

Now have Confucianism in my newly captured city and no state religion yet, so 6 Cpt!

Traded Currency for Monotheism, Aesthetics, and Monarchy; Traded Monarchy for Mathematics.

I'm now starting to research Civil Service. I plan to trade Code of Laws to all AIs that might bulb Philosophy, so I can give them Civil Service and something else for it. I plan to get Machinery and Engineering in future trades.

After I get, Philosophy, I will adopt Pacifism and research Nationalism and Constitution for Jails. At this point, no more research. Commerce slider will be set to 100% Espionage. I will trade for and possibly steal useful technologies the rest of the game.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Good heavens, don't vassalize DeGaulle!

I got DOW'd by my powerful Friendly neighbor Roosevelt, Pleased Lincoln, and Pleased Gandhi (My espionage target).
I'm not sure I can win my game while at war with 80% of the world.

I missed The Great Wall, the Oracle, the Free Great Artist from Music, and then this war blunder.
Probably should have practiced instead of wasting such a great start.

Spoiler :

For Pangea I think Low seas, Solid, Tropical gives 700 land tiles for each map.
Pressed and Natural coastline give a lot less land.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Ouch. Sorry, Kaitzilla.

Gandhi is my espionage target, but he is now a close neighbor, after I eliminated Hannibal. Gandhi vassalized De Gaulle. Gandhi has a huge military which is so atypical of him. I don't want to have to steal through Rifling to draft a bunch of Riflemen just to take back my LC cities.

Then the AP voted to break relations with Gandhi. Does that last forever or until the AP reverses its vote? I will at least lose the trade route discount with Gandhi.

I have 6000E versus Gandhi, so maybe I can use that to steal techs from him. I can use one of a few target Civs that only ever had three cities. I could start over with one of them, without too much loss, if that gets me the trade route discount. I suppose I should have retained that Great Spy rather than immediately infiltrate with it.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In my current game, Gandhi got Philosophy and would not trade it

My war with Hannibal went well after I got Catapults. He never got access to a strategic resource of any kind. The final battle was a disaster; after knocking his culture down to 17%, it went up to 34% when he built a Castle. It was also a hill city. I had just 4 horse archers and two catapults, killed six archers and a catapult, but one archer remained with 1.0 Str. Next turn there was a new archer and a promoted archer and my three remaining horse archers were half strength. Lost them and rushed in with two new horse archers, 1st Knight and 2nd Great General, creating a horse archer WL and killed the last remaining archer.

Then Huayna Capac declares on me and takes an Iron city with Corn and Fish. I retake it, but my stack stalls in battle with his closest city. I had six Knights, one Pikeman and two Trebuchets, but he had just gotten Feudalism. I lost two 95% battles of Knight versus Longbow, and not take his city. Took 40W for Peace Treaty. Rebuilding to try again.

Cuzco is the target since it has The Great Lighthouse and nearly all my cities are on the coast (there is a small sea inside the continent near me).

I have to cripple Huayna Capac now before he gets even better technologies. I can deal with one strong military threat, not two at the same time.

 

[Seraiel]

The starts that you get Kaitzilla, are not from this world. I hope you share your secret on how you get them with us some day .

And don't think this is envy, I'm glad you get those, I just wish you a little more luck in the games, but probably shouldn't, because WastinTime and me will probably not be able to win any games anymore against you should that happen. Forget the last, good luck to your game.

 

[WastinTime]

That start is about as close to perfect as you can get. Unless it's spacerace, you'd want to be on a river.

 

[Kaitzilla]

...
One tip in addition that will also explain something towards Kai who asked that in the thread where he posted his guide (see list of writeups) : Having a TR towards the L-city gives 20% bonus. To get that, you need to close the borders with everybody but the target, because the cities are close and small so have low TR-values. The only other possibility with which it is possible to get no TR is when having too few cities, so i. e. having 5 cities à 2 TRs = 10 TRs but the target-civ having 20 cities, then CIV chooses the more valuable, bigger, further away lying cities and the L-cities don't get chosen.

Hth. .

Actually, as time has passed I believe the trick to get -20% Trade Routes is to get the AI to Close Borders with everyone but the Human Player.
So pay for Trade Embargos, not close borders.

Ouch. Sorry, Kaitzilla.

Gandhi is my espionage target, but he is now a close neighbor, after I eliminated Hannibal. Gandhi vassalized De Gaulle. Gandhi has a huge military which is so atypical of him. I don't want to have to steal through Rifling to draft a bunch of Riflemen just to take back my LC cities.

Then the AP voted to break relations with Gandhi. Does that last forever or until the AP reverses its vote? I will at least lose the trade route discount with Gandhi.

I have 6000E versus Gandhi, so maybe I can use that to steal techs from him. I can use one of a few target Civs that only ever had three cities. I could start over with one of them, without too much loss, if that gets me the trade route discount. I suppose I should have retained that Great Spy rather than immediately infiltrate with it.

Ya, I'm never gonna vassal an AI in an Espionage Game ever again.

My Gandhi had a huge military too!
I can't remember how long broken relations with the AP lasts, but I think it is the same when an AI demands you stop trading and you accept.
AI won't speak to you for up to 30 turns or something like that.

The starts that you get Kaitzilla, are not from this world. I hope you share your secret on how you get them with us some day .

And don't think this is envy, I'm glad you get those, I just wish you a little more luck in the games, but probably shouldn't, because WastinTime and me will probably not be able to win any games anymore against you should that happen. Forget the last, good luck to your game.

Honestly it is freakish luck sometimes.
I MapFindered 2000 more maps after it, and nothing great.

That start is about as close to perfect as you can get. Unless it's spacerace, you'd want to be on a river.

I grinded the game to a finish with some absolutely furious combat against the 3 AI.
Lost only 1 bad city.

Then I noobed it up at the end even more.
Had a 6 turn Peace Treaty with Gandhi when I was ready to take all the Legendary Cities back because I begged him for
Pressed end turn 6 times in a row.
Probably my worst effort in a few years.

My start was ideal ya.
No Copper or Stone though, and my Chariot rushes got hammered finishing off Pacal at the start with his no-copper Spears.
(Pacal might have been a mistake too )

My military efforts to steal Great Wall from Roosevelt failed (he had perfect Chichen Itza timing), so I built National Epic very late (past 1AD)
I had great luck with my very late GPP effort RNG. (3 Great Artists and the rest Great Spies)
Only World Wonder I got was Shwedagon Paya.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well done, Kaitzilla! Too bad about begging for gold too close to your cultural win date.

Not sure whether I will finish my game before the deadline. I just started another war with Huayna Capac to capture his capital Cuzco, but he has castles and Chichen Itza. He probably has far more units than I expected too. I only have 1 catapult and six trebuchets, so it will take a full five turns to bombard his defense down close to 00%.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In my current game, I captured Hannibal's Notre Dame, so happiness in the capital is no longer an issue while running Representation.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Huayna Capac sent a SoD to my northern weakly defended Iron city. I did not even have the foresight to finish its Walls, much less start its Castle, before DoWing him. So, I sacrificed 3 lower XPs knights and completely wiped out his SoD before it could reach my Iron city. I captured one of his cities on my way to Cuzco. I directed a few hundred espionage points at Huayna Capac and have a Spy ready in Cuzco. Also, got my 3rd Great General and used him to create a Maceman super healer, so my troops will be able to heal quickly. Hopefully I will take Huayna by surprise with the City Revolt and have enough troops to wipe his and move all my Knights, a Crossbowman, Maceman and Pikeman into Cuzco right after capturing it.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Elizabeth is not a very good leader to rush early to secure cities for an Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory. I only managed to capture one city from Hannibal with Horse Archers even though he never had either metal or Horses. I resorted to Catapults to take the rest of his cities. Of course a few hundred espionage would have funded a City Revolt in his Capital and two hill cities.

To use warfare in getting cities, a leader like Gilgamesh would be better, primarily for his Vultures, but also for Protective which provides cheap Walls and Castle. His special building based on Courthouse can be built with just Priesthood and costs only 75% of normal. Creative provides cheap Libraries and Theatres which could be used as seed culture in the LC cities. Financial would be helpful, but that just makes Spy Specialists a little more appealing despite the lack of Philosophical.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Great Lighthouse is a very strong source of Commerce for the Epionage Assisted Cultural Victory, because two extra trade routes in each coastal city provides a lot of instant Commerce, unlike cottages which take long to mature and there will never be a reason to acquire Corporation which obsoletes it. Elizabeth starts with Fishing and Mining, so an early Sailing and Masonry are easier to get. Getting a Lighthouse up is also more of a challenge for the AI than a Human.

The Great Lighthouse also works well for all leaders. For example, The Colossus is effective only for Financial leaders who get 4C per coast plot rather than just 3C.

To maximize the yield of The Great Lighthouse, be sure to include maximum AIs for more foreign trade routes. Alternatively, use a map script that generates many islands and settle a number of islands that matches your coastal cities' number of trade routes (5 with TGL and Castle; not applicable to this gauntlet though which requires Pangaea though).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

If you still need a lot of Espionage when Printing Press becomes available to trade or steal, it probably makes sense to steal it if you can't trade for it, especially if the target City is in your Culture and gets a substantial City Culture discount, making the steal very cheap. The espionage burned to steal Printing Press should quickly be recouped if you have a lot of Villages and Towns, which get an extra commerce each with Printing Press. This is especially viable if you research Nationalism and Constitution and trade these for Paper and Printing Press.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Well done, Kaitzilla! Too bad about begging for gold too close to your cultural win date.

Not sure whether I will finish my game before the deadline. I just started another war with Huayna Capac to capture his capital Cuzco, but he has castles and Chichen Itza. He probably has far more units than I expected too. I only have 1 catapult and six trebuchets, so it will take a full five turns to bombard his defense down close to 00%.

125% defense Castles are a pain.

Elizabeth is not a very good leader to rush early to secure cities for an Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory. I only managed to capture one city from Hannibal with Horse Archers even though he never had either metal or Horses. I resorted to Catapults to take the rest of his cities. Of course a few hundred espionage would have funded a City Revolt in his Capital and two hill cities.

To use warfare in getting cities, a leader like Gilgamesh would be better, primarily for his Vultures, but also for Protective which provides cheap Walls and Castle. His special building based on Courthouse can be built with just Priesthood and costs only 75% of normal. Creative provides cheap Libraries and Theatres which could be used as seed culture in the LC cities. Financial would be helpful, but that just makes Spy Specialists a little more appealing despite the lack of Philosophical.

Lizzy can do pretty good with early Axes.
Financial and Philosophical are bread and butter for Espionage wins.

Gilgamesh is an interesting choice for the reasons you mentioned ya.

Inca might be best with the crazy rush and getting the good Wonders like The Great Lighthouse, The Great Wall, Oracle etc. etc.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I attacked Cuzo while in Spy revolt, losing my Super Healer at 99.44% odds. Had to leave 5 decimated defenders, because he had 18 defenders and I just didn't have enough attackers. I'm not going to exploit a 004b bug that allows mounted units to attack twice in the same turn. I waited until the next turn and he added only a single fresh Longbowman. Now defense was back up to +125% and no more spies. So I bombarded with 5 of my weakest Trebuchets and barraged with the remaining 3.6 str Trebuchet at just under 4% odds versus now +106% defense. Now all defenders could be killed by my Knights at 90% and often close to 100% odds. I now control The Great Lighthouse and Mausoleum of Mausolus.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Huayna Capac offers Cease Fire, Capitulation, Optics, World Map and 10W. However, Gandhi is the most powerful AI and I am his worse enemy. He hates Huayna Capac almost as much as me. I plan to make HC Gandhi's worse enemy, but then he must not be my vassal.

With my entire stack in Cuzco minus 1 crossbowmen, 2 pikemen and 5 trebuchets, it still has a revolt chance of 3.23%. It now has 16 population.

 

[Pangaea]

I attacked Cuzo while in Spy revolt, losing my Super Healer at 99.44% odds.

Oooof, that's a kick in the face Good thing you got it in the end, albeit at quite the cost.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

TGL added almost 21 Cpt in trade routes, but most of my cities have been whipped down to produce military units, Jails, Walls, Castles and even Theatres. Thus less than half the added trade routes are foreign.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yes, I am willing to risk my Super Healer at 99% and higher odds, but have rarely lost one at such good odds. This was a brand new Super Healer; he did not survive the capturing of a single city. Luckily, I have one Medic and Cuzco to heal in.

Thanks for your response Pangaea!