G-Minor 70

[unclethrill]

2 Gold and 1 food is the only way on this one. Was able 2 shave 400 years off my best accepted and 200 off my best ever (2 crashes). Still working on improving that date but it still seems like the tech rate is what is slowing me down.

 

[Aerinon]

Thanks for all the help guys. I finally managed to scrap a 1000 BC win putting me in the middle of the pack. Decided that relations are better to trade away all techs and not try to get other techs in exchange. I was putting off tech trading too late usually to make sure AIs had the prerequisites before the vote. Also, revolts to OR before completing TAP makes a huge difference. Saving a couple forests (if you don't have enough) is the best way to ensure you have spread the religion before the 14 turns are up.

I still had problems with early wars, oracle stealing civs and occasionally Zara would convert to the AP religion as Ghandi, Hatty, and Ramsees always beat him to the early religions.

I never had a problem researching Alpha on time. And Aesthetics seems to be a good follow-on choice in case you don't win the first RV vote.

Thanks again for helping me with my first Deity win!

-Aerinon

 

[Robert Smith]

Just a small tips. Since the tech path is always the same it is very convenient to select all tech from tech tree at turn 0 by holding shift. Doing that you don't have to select what tech to research after finish BW, myst... And you want make the mistake to take wrong free tech from oracle due to that you finish research at the same turn as oracle was finish (I have made this mistake...)

 

[unclethrill]

I was able to shave another turn off but I'm still not sure how to cut 400 more years off. I get 3 workers out the gate. Chopping the second and third. then I improve one food and 2 mining. After that I pre-chop, unless I need the hammers to finish the Oracle. Once I get the oracle, I chop 2 more missionaries and TAP. the last mission. is build and sent on his way. I can win the first vote but I am still 400 yearrs off from the top three times I believe.

Should I start with BW and leave the city at size one until I have the 3 workers or is there a better approach?

 

[SirDrake]

I've got 3 or 4 wins now. Second-best date is 1025 BC, best date (just finished) is 1150 BC. Far from medal contention, but being as I had only one diety submission prior to this gauntlet, I feel I've done well.

Some thoughts:

Leader/Civ Choice
Ramsees worked out better for me than Bismark. Partly, this was because of the Spiritual trait. But mostly, it was because I looked for farm resources with Ramsees and tried to get deer with Bismark. The hammers were great on the Boreal map, but the research was too slow, even with gems; plus I usually lost the Oracle to Ghandi (I'm guessing he finished it so quickly by chopping his forests to bits).

If I get bored, I might try a game with Augustus. In my opinion, fish make for a much faster start (I'll just have to run mapfinder longer to get fish + gold + lots of forest).


Gandhi was not a good rival. My guess is that he puts a lot of stock in shared religion, which just hasn't been possible for me (running No-State because of the variety of beliefs).

Suryavarman's favorite civic is Organized Religion, but he screwed up my games. Bad vibes with other leaders led to multiple "stop trading with that *#!*head!" demands.

Lincoln is an enigma. He usually voted for me, but I'm not sure why. In addition to gifting techs, I always gifted all my resources and even gifted workers a few times (near the end, having no further use for them).

Zaro Y: See above, but I think someone explained that his max diplomacy bonus is higher for peace/open borders or something like that, so if you set that up early it will be enough.

Hatshepsut loves me and wants to bear my children (but as she considers herself a goddess in the literal sense, that would make for a mortal-immortal relationship, which rarely works, Aragorn-Arwen notwithstanding). Hence the best tactic I came up with was this:

1) Figure out who is likely to vote for you.
2) Spread Christianity to their highest-population city. If you have an extra Missionary, spread to their next-best city.
3) Spread Christianity to the lowest-population cities of those who are lukewarm.

Doing this, I managed to win with only two of the AIs voting for me.


Tech path was pretty Orthodox, I think:

Mining (for gold/gem mine)
Bronze Working (to chop)
Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood (to start on Oracle)
Writing (to get started with open borders)
Masonry-Monotheism (for Organized Religion & Theology prerequisite)
Theology (from Oracle)
Alphabet (to gift techs)


Workers
I never wasted more than one forest on workers.

Plan A was to have the first worker dig a mine while the city builds the second worker. Justification: A mine builds faster than a farm, which means the city can start working a good tile as soon as possible. After the mine, worker#1 would build a farm or chop the 2nd worker.

Plan B was to have the first worker farm first, and let the city grow all the way to pop 3 before building more workers. I didn't have any problem getting the other improvements built in time with city growth, and this way the workers could be built when the city had nothing better to do.


Cheers,
-J

 

[Mesix]

I'm sick of people converting to TAP religion. Three game in a row ruined by TAP converts.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Robert_Marshall]

Holy Crap That was a lot of information for a guy trying his first win at Diety or Religion. I am just hoping to finish in ANY year. A lot of good info for me and now to head to Map Finder. I currently am working on my first Time win at Immortal for my first Immortal win as well. I have it this time after screwing up and overexpanding in the my first two...or worse letting the Barbs kill off my opponents. I could definitely use a break from trying to run the clock out. ANYWAY, thanks for the tips and I think this mass of info just might get me my first Deity win...we shall see.

 

[Mesix]

Workers
I never wasted more than one forest on workers.

Plan A was to have the first worker dig a mine while the city builds the second worker. Justification: A mine builds faster than a farm, which means the city can start working a good tile as soon as possible. After the mine, worker#1 would build a farm or chop the 2nd worker.

Plan B was to have the first worker farm first, and let the city grow all the way to pop 3 before building more workers. I didn't have any problem getting the other improvements built in time with city growth, and this way the workers could be built when the city had nothing better to do.

I always go with your plan B. I allow the city to grow to size 3 while building improvements in this order: mine, farm, mine. The city usually grows to size 2 by the time the first mine finishes and the city gets 6-8 bonus which equates to . By the time the 2nd mine is finished, the city should be 3 population and working both mines.

Getting a competative finish requires 2 commerce resources (gems or gold).

 

[Robert Smith]

I'm sick of people converting to TAP religion. Three game in a row ruined by TAP converts.

That's all I have to say.

I have exact the same experience. Three pre 1500 games in a row lost in the last 1-2 turns due people converting to TAP religion

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I was able to shave another turn off but I'm still not sure how to cut 400 more years off. I get 3 workers out the gate. Chopping the second and third. then I improve one food and 2 mining. After that I pre-chop, unless I need the hammers to finish the Oracle. Once I get the oracle, I chop 2 more missionaries and TAP. the last mission. is build and sent on his way. I can win the first vote but I am still 400 yearrs off from the top three times I believe.

Should I start with BW and leave the city at size one until I have the 3 workers or is there a better approach?

Bronze Working first:

I have usually started with Bronze Working, but there are valid exceptions:

1) On Pangaea, either Ramesses II or Hatshepsut will adopt Organized Religion very early. It may make sense to research Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Masonry -> Monotheism before Bronze Working to adopt Organized Religion early as well to get the Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus with one of these two. (The other will usually have to be given Monotheism, before it will ever adopt Organized Religion.)

2) Often, you will want to get Open Borders early, so you need Writing early. Although a bit wasteful, if you have either Hunting or Agriculture as a starting Technology, you can research "useless" Animal Husbandry on your way to Writing. If you do it fast enough, you can complete Writing early enough to have Open Borders for 50 turns by the RL DV Ballot, you will get a +2 Diplomatic bonus rather than the more common +1 Diplomatic bonus. When you build TAP, you may want to delay it enough to ensure you get the +2 bonus. For Epic speed add 14 turns to the expected TAP completion turn and compare it to the turn you agreed to Open Borders. If the difference isn't quite 50 turns yet, delay TAP completion as needed to make it 50 turns.

When to build the Workers:

Build the Workers as early as possible without delaying Growth too much. I try to Grow my Capital as quickly as possible by improving the Food Resource first and working that Food Resource at least until the desired size (usually 3) is achieved.
After the Capital is large enough to work both Commerce Tiles (usually Gold or Gems Mines), I usually build all the Workers. Workers can usually be built twice as fast in a Population 3 City than in a Population 1 City.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I have exact the same experience. Three pre 1500 games in a row lost in the last 1-2 turns due people converting to TAP religion

A Civ will convert to a new (for example TAP) Religion, if significantly more of its Population is of this Religion than its current State Religion.

The best Opponent to have is one that founds a Religion early and spreads it to all Civs.

If you have a Non-TAP Religion, it is sometimes prudent to spread it to the Capital of any Civ lacking a Religion or having a State Religion with few adherents (say less than 4 Population total).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

I have been building the first worker and then chopping 2 more before I let the city start growing. 3 workers can improve most everything in less than 10-15 turns and then they pre-chop everything in sight.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Leader/Civ Choice
Ramsees worked out better for me than Bismark. Partly, this was because of the Spiritual trait. But mostly, it was because I looked for farm resources with Ramsees and tried to get deer with Bismark. The hammers were great on the Boreal map, but the research was too slow, even with gems; plus I usually lost the Oracle to Ghandi (I'm guessing he finished it so quickly by chopping his forests to bits).

If I get bored, I might try a game with Augustus. In my opinion, fish make for a much faster start (I'll just have to run mapfinder longer to get fish + gold + lots of forest).

Bismarck and Qin Shi Huang are the best choices. Bismarck has synergy with Boreal Maps (starting Technology Hunting and plentiful Deer). Qin Shi Huang has synergy with single continent or flat maps with Temperate Climate (Pangaea seems best). His Agriculture starting Technology was meant to be used on irrigated Corn.

Ramesses II is your best Opponent. For that reason alone he is not a good Leader to Play as.

Suryavarman's favorite civic is Organized Religion, but he screwed up my games. Bad vibes with other leaders led to multiple "stop trading with that *#!*head!" demands.

He is trouble in exactly the way you mention. His Favorite Civic is Organized Religion, but its hard to trade with him to get his Diplomacy high enough without making others upset with you.

Lincoln is an enigma. He usually voted for me, but I'm not sure why. In addition to gifting techs, I always gifted all my resources and even gifted workers a few times (near the end, having no further use for them).

Lincoln may be sympathetic with a Player that has a Low Score, as well as other hidden attitude values. Lincoln is #5 on my list of best RL DV Opponents.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Misotu]

I'm sick of people converting to TAP religion. Three game in a row ruined by TAP converts.

That's all I have to say.

Believe me, I *know* where you are coming from. I had one more try at this yesterday. Wonderful game. It was perfect. I was ready to go by *1750BC* - AP done, missionaries done, AP religion spread to all except one civ, a missionary poised in that civ and one spare. Hattie +9, Ramesses +8.

BUT

TAP religion had auto-spread to Zara and he had converted, with 8 votes. I held off spreading to Ramesses for as long as I could, trying to get another missionary into Hattie. Gifted one to her but I think it must have failed. Had to call the election in 1625BC or miss the DV option, didn't think I could hold off any longer but calculated I would just scrape a win.

Then Hattie whipped something in her capital - suddenly she had only 2 votes instead of 5. I lost by one vote.

I don't think I'll get such a great start and game again ... that's probably it for me now.

 

[unclethrill]

A Civ will convert to a new (for example TAP) Religion, if significantly more of its Population is of this Religion than its current State Religion.

The best Opponent to have is one that founds a Religion early and spreads it to all Civs.

If you have a Non-TAP Religion, it is sometimes prudent to spread it to the Capital of any Civ lacking a Religion or having a State Religion with few adherents (say less than 4 Population total).

Sun Tzu Wu

That's a very important point. If someone has no religion, DO NOT spread the TAP religion to them until after they get another religion. Also, when they do get a religion late, look and see what size city it is in and be sure to spread it to a smaller city. Otherwise, it's time to go to the next MF save.

 

[Mesix]

In one of my games, Cyrus had a city with population 5 under Jewish religion. He had a city with population 3 under Christianity (TAP) religion. He switched to Christianity and had 6 votes (3 x 2 = 6) for TAP election which was enough to prevent me from winning by 1 measly vote .

 

[unclethrill]

I guess the AI is more likely to switch if TAP has been built.

 

[Robert Smith]

A Civ will convert to a new (for example TAP) Religion, if significantly more of its Population is of this Religion than its current State Religion.

The best Opponent to have is one that founds a Religion early and spreads it to all Civs.

If you have a Non-TAP Religion, it is sometimes prudent to spread it to the Capital of any Civ lacking a Religion or having a State Religion with few adherents (say less than 4 Population total).

Sun Tzu Wu

One of the times I had to spread TAP to Ross, he was NS before and of course he converted to TAP, But that was ok (according too plan) since it was a city with 1 population (only 2 votes) BUT for some unknown reason 1 turn later just before DV, TAP was automatic spread to his Capital (6*2 +2 =14 votes), so obvious he blocked my win (the rest of the guys was => +7)

I haven't been using the false religion tactic in this gauntlet, maybe with Bismark on boreal, but with Qin I need all the forest to AP and TAP missioners.

Edit: Finally I got a pre 1500 win

 

[Robert Smith]

How many turns do you need to get +1 from sharing resources? Is it possible to get +1 from gifting resources (like gold) after x turns?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In one of my games, Cyrus had a city with population 5 under Jewish religion. He had a city with population 3 under Christianity (TAP) religion. He switched to Christianity and had 6 votes (3 x 2 = 6) for TAP election which was enough to prevent me from winning by 1 measly vote .

I always thought an AI Civ would never convert to a less popular Religion.

Maybe it has something to do with TAP. Perhaps, an AI gives a different weight (for example 2x) to the TAP Religion, especially if converting would make it a contender for TAP Resident Election.

Sun Tzu Wu