G-Minor 70

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I already have Monotheism. As was suggested by one of the elite players, getting Monotheism before Priesthood allows you to have a greater shared civic bonus with civs that like Organized Religion. I am only teching Writing while building the Oracle.

Thanks for the complement. As I've mentioned before, usually either Hatshepsut or Ramesses II will complete Monotheism before I do, while I pursue BW -> beeline Monotheism -> beeline Writing -> Theology (The Oracle) -> Alphabet. Maybe BW could come right after Monotheism? This might work out better, if not too late for Workers to start Chopping.

I have found that I can gain at least +3 Diplomacy via Shared Favorite Civic with either Hatshepsut or Ramesses II by the RL DV Vote. Later on, you want to convert this Civ's Capital with your free Christian Missionary, so they have plenty of time to spread it to all their Cities, so long as that Civ doesn't end up having 75% or more of the TAP Population. In the worst case, I can gift the other of these two Civs Monotheism and get +1 Diplomacy with it on the next turn for Shared Favorite Civic when it adopts Organized Religion.

Also, early Organized Religion can provide a +25% to The Oracle, if an early Religion spreads to your Capital and you convert to it. Just be sure to convert to Christianity (or your desired TAP Religion before TAP completion). In one of my Gm-70 attempts that appeared to be heading toward a potential 1500 BC (turn 100) win, I did exactly that by mistake on turn 84 and had to abandon the game ... A Hindu TAP? No way was I going to be able Win that game ...

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I can't really wrap my head around the idea of building a workboat. Sure, 2 is better than none, but getting the settler out on turn 18 to start building gem mines is more ideal. I view Fishing as a wasted starting tech for these settings and avoid coadtal starts, even with fish. I have finished a less than competative game with Augustus Caesar already, I have finished a game for this Gauntlet with every civ that has an Industrius leader. France has 2 Industrius leaders and I played as Lou and not Nappy.

 

[Robert Smith]

I haven't played on a week so I thought I should start with testing some micromanagement.
On the same map I have tried to optimize in which order to build workers and refine tiles (farm and gold). It was not so easy as I thought to optimize, taken research and hammers into consideration. Goal: a city of size 3 with 3 workers, 2 gold, 1 farm and finish Oracle turn 70-75. Qin on a pangaea map.

Current I use following order
Warrior (let city grow to size 2, depending on start position I newer finish the warrior)
Worker (refine farm-gold-gold)
Warrior (let city grow to size 3, I newer finish the warrior)
Worker (help to finish last gold mine)
Worker (chopped) => all workers are pre-chopping for AP
Oracle (no forest are used for Oracle)

In what order are you produce workers, are you chopping workers?
In what order are you refine tiles?
Does your building/refine strategy depends on starting position (like starting on hill, flood plains, river tiles etc)

 

[Mesix]

I always build a worker first while the city is still size 1. There is no need for the city to grow before you build the worker. Once the worker is done, you can improve a farm and the city will grow faster. You want to work the two commerce tiles (gold or gems) as quick as possible. You cannot work them unless you have a worker to imporve them. If you settle on a plains/hill or on a resource that gives you bonus (stone or marble work well) you will get one extra out of your city and the worker will be done in 18 turns instead of 23.

If you play on a Boreal map, it is easier to get the 18 (or even 15) turn worker. Plains/forest with a deer resource produce 2 and 2 . Having a 4 production tile (workers are built with ) gives the same benefit as the extra in the city. If you can also settle on a plains/hill that is a net gain of 2 production towards the starting worker whcih will then finish in only 15 turns.

Having a masonry resource on a plains/hill tile will give 2 bonus if the city is settled there. That is a way to get a 15 turn initial settler on any map type, but a plains/hill with a either stone or marble is pretty rare.

 

[Robert Smith]

I always build a worker first while the city is still size 1. There is no need for the city to grow before you build the worker. Once the worker is done, you can improve a farm and the city will grow faster.

I have tried that also, but you have to build warrior sometime to get the city to grow. Question is, should you start with the warrior or should you wait? In special cases like when I have flood plains (3F+1C) I always start to grow before I build workers. The goal is to build Oracle as fast as possible (and have 3 workers ready to chop)

 

[Mesix]

Building a worker first is always faster. If it takes you 18 turns to build the first worker and 5 turns to build a farm then you will have a farm up in 23 turns. You will then grow twice a fast as you would without the farm (and maybe 3 times as fast if the farm has irrigated corn). If you allow your city to grow first, then the time that it takes you to grow just delays the building of the worker and further growth of the city. You can't make improvement without having at least one worker.

Building a warrior first to allow your city to grow also delays the development of your commerce resources. This is more of a detriment since it slows your reserach down.

Build one worker. Then allow your city to grow to size 3. Then build more workers.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I can't really wrap my head around the idea of building a workboat. Sure, 2 is better than none, but getting the settler out on turn 18 to start building gem mines is more ideal. I view Fishing as a wasted starting tech for these settings and avoid coastal starts, even with fish. I have finished a less than competitive game with Augustus Caesar already, I have finished a game for this Gauntlet with every civ that has an Industrious leader. France has 2 Industrious leaders and I played as Lou and not Nappy.

I agree that Augustus having Fishing as a Starting Technology is a weakness, but building a Work Boat to improve a Seafood Resource is a better option than researching a second Food improving Technology like Agriculture. While building the Workboat, an unimproved Tile with 3F could be worked and the City could increase to Population 2 or Population 3 (or close to it). Now working 2-3 Tiles, completing the Worker may take about 5-10 turns less to complete. However, see below for how things change when maximizing the Work Boat building speed to the exclusion of City Growth ...

Two City Strategy with Augustus and a PH City Plot with a PHF and a Seafood Resource:

One has to compare the above scenario with say a Map good for Qin Shi Huang. In this case, the Worker is started on Turn 0 and completes in 18-23 turns with a good starting position. When completed, the Worker's first mission would be building a Farm which will take it 8 turns. So, the Worker begins a Gold or Gems Mine on turn 26-31 and completes on turn 32-38.

With Augustus and building a Work Boat first, it is probably better to work a 2H City Plot (Settler on PH) and PHF (3H), so the Work Boat can be completed on turn 8 (ready for use on turn 9). This means no growth until the Work Boat is deployed, but this is probably optimal anyway. Now the Worker build starts on turn 9 with 2H1C City Plot and say Clam (4F2C). While building the Worker, the 4F excess is converted to Hammers making City output 0F6H3C per turn. Thus, the Worker is completed in 15 turns on Turn 23 (ready for use on Turn 24). Since we already have improved Clam (4F2C) for a Food source, the Worker can immediately start building a Gold or Gems mine on Turn 24 or 25 and completes it on Turn 30 or 31. See how that compares with the Qin Shi Huang start in the paragraph above.

So, one can turn a perceived Weakness in playing Augustus (his Fishing starting Technology) into a strength by utilizing a Starting Position that has synergy with Augustus' strengths (ignoring Praetorians for the moment ). I do concede that finding such a good Starting position for Augustus may be hard (dense Forests with mimimum Shore Tiles including a Seafood Resource). However, the second City can be the one with maximum Forests and the place to build TAP.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Early Growth vs Early Worker:

I haven't played on a week so I thought I should start with testing some micromanagement.
On the same map I have tried to optimize in which order to build workers and refine tiles (farm and gold). It was not so easy as I thought to optimize, taken research and hammers into consideration. Goal: a city of size 3 with 3 workers, 2 gold, 1 farm and finish Oracle turn 70-75. Qin on a pangaea map.

Current I use following order
Warrior (let city grow to size 2, depending on start position I newer finish the warrior)
Worker (refine farm-gold-gold)
Warrior (let city grow to size 3, I newer finish the warrior)
Worker (help to finish last gold mine)
Worker (chopped) => all workers are pre-chopping for AP
Oracle (no forest are used for Oracle)

Usually, growing the City to Population 2 before building a Worker will be moderately Slow. At best, there will be an unimproved 3F Tile that can Grow the City to Population 2 in 11 turns (33F is required for Population 2 at Epic speed). The second Tile that can now be Worked must also be unimproved. It is almost always better to start a Worker at Turn 0 (or the turn the Capital is built). The only valid exception for this Gauntlet is building a Work Boat first to improve a Seafood Resource. For this Gauntlet, Warriors should all be built after the first Worker. The first Worker is need ASAP to first build any required Farm, followed by building two Mines.

Worker Build Order; Chopping Workers:

In what order are you produce workers, are you chopping workers?

I usually build all Workers, except the initial Worker, after reaching Population 3 with three Citizens ready to Work a Farm (or Camp) and two Mines as soon as the initial Worker can complete them.

I may finish the final Worker with a Forest Chop, so The Oracle can be started as soon as Priesthood is completed. Other than that, any Forest Chop applied to a Worker would be a Pre-Chop mistake on my part. I prefer to build Workers via Worked Tile Hammers and Worked Tile Excess Food.

Tile Improvement Order:

In what order are you refine tiles?

1) Corn Farm or Deer Camp
2) 0-2 Gems Mines
3) 0-2 Gold Mines

The sum of my Gems Mines and Gold Mines mentioned above is almost always just 2. Two Gold Mines is generally better due to the extra Hammers provided.

Start Position:

Does your building/refine strategy depends on starting position (like starting on hill, flood plains, river tiles etc)

I always try to build the City on a PH (Plains Hill) for the extra Hammer in the City Plot. For RL DV, I much prefer Forests over Floodplains, but I do Work Floodplains if that ever makes sense, but I never improve them, except very late in the Game. The start must have either Deer (for Bismarck) or (preferably Riverside) Corn (for Qin Shi Huang) and two (preferably Riverside) Gold or (preferably Riverside Hills) Gems Tiles. Most important of all, the rest of the BFC should be Forests and even the sixteen Tiles in Ring 3 surrounding the BFC should have maximum Tiles. Also, all Opponents should start a moderate distance away so close borders and their Culture "stealing" Forests or worse yet Mines is unlikely.

I have almost stopped looking for the "ideal" City Plot of Plains Hill Marble (3H alone from the City Plot itself), since whenever it happens, the PH Marble start is sorely lacking in other Start Position Requirements, especially the two Gems/Gold Tiles and dense Forest "requirements".

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I prefer 2 grassland gems to hill gems/gold. Sure you get the extra from the hill mines, but if you are chopping the Oracle and TAP, then the additional are worth about as much as the extra population from growing first vs. building a worker first (i.e. it's all in your mind). When I have a grassland gem, I can start working it earlier. With the expansive trait I can get a worker out on turn 15 and have the grassland mine done by turn 21 (if next to the city...usually turn 22 if it is 2 spaces away). Since the grassland gem mine produces 2 , 1 and 8 , my city will grow (slowly) while it is being worked. By the time my worker finishes a 2nd mine (6-8 turns later), my city has usually grown to 2 pop and can work both mines. That means that it is possible to have 2 gem mines being worked by turn 29-32 (depending on placement) generating 21-23 each turn with the capital. The 1-2 turns of build time that are reduced by having extra from working hill mines are less than the 5-7 turns saved in research by getting the gems mine up and running.

 

[SirDrake]

Hokay, I've read the thread and had a try with Ramsees.


Apostolic Palace built = True

AP Religion = Christianity

Christianity in at least one city for each civilization = True

AI attitudes = good

Elections to AP residency = 4

Other types of AP votes = 0


So the problem, obviously, is that there isn't even a vote for Religious Leader. Anybody know what I'm doing wrong? I only have one city, so I'm sure that I don't have so many own-votes as to invalidate a religious victory.

The AI attitudes (visible) are -3, +1, +11 & +12.

I am the only candidate when the residency elections come up (and they all vote for me, as best as I can remember).

Help?

Thanks!

-Jason


EDIT: P.S., nobody has Christianity as a state religion. I was running NSR for a time and am now running Hinduism.

 

[Mesix]

You have to spread the AP religion to at least one city of each civ. There is a time limit (14-15 turns I think) that it must be spread after the AP leader is elected for the religious VC to come up. Also, you cannot have enough for a self vote (75% of the voting population). It is unlikely that you would be able to self vote with one city unless it is 6+ pop and all four AI players have the AP religion in one city eash that is size 1-2.

I hope this helps you out.

 

[Mesix]

I just played a very successful game...too successful in fact.

I was playing as Bismark. I settled on a PH and worked a forested plains so my worker was done in 15 turns. I had 2 grassland gems worked by turn 29 producing a total of 23 per turn. I finished the Oracle on turn 67...5 turns before I finished researching Writing .

Oh well...back to the drawing board.

 

[Robert Smith]

Thx Sun Tzu Wu,

I'm back to start with worker (I know it sound crazy but when I did the replay on same map I build oracle a couple of turn faster when starting with warrior, I have to do it again...)

I got BW from a hut but lost the T96 vote with one vote (req 29 I had 28) Ross was Hindu but when spreading Christianity, he converted to Christianity (double vote) If I had been smart I should have finish AP two turns later for a T98 win. In T98 l should have get votes from zara due to +2p from writing (normally with my tech search +2 from OB is not a possible but getting BW from a hut....) I did a replay from auto folder just to confirm my mistake, I was already delaying AP to get alpha why not delay 2 more turns...

Edit: if someone had been nice and spread Hindu to me it could have been a < T95 (<1625BC) victory

 

[cabert]

Hokay, I've read the thread and had a try with Ramsees.


Apostolic Palace built = True

AP Religion = Christianity

Christianity in at least one city for each civilization = True

AI attitudes = good

Elections to AP residency = 4

Other types of AP votes = 0


So the problem, obviously, is that there isn't even a vote for Religious Leader. Anybody know what I'm doing wrong? I only have one city, so I'm sure that I don't have so many own-votes as to invalidate a religious victory.

The AI attitudes (visible) are -3, +1, +11 & +12.

I am the only candidate when the residency elections come up (and they all vote for me, as best as I can remember).

Help?

Thanks!

-Jason


EDIT: P.S., nobody has Christianity as a state religion. I was running NSR for a time and am now running Hinduism.

you have too many votes, and can self vote yourself a victory.
There is no vote in this situation.
cahnge your state religion, if you're christian.

 

[SirDrake]

Mesix, cabert: Thanks! I figured out the problem. I had at least one AP-religion city in each other Civ, but Lincoln's only Christian city was taken by Cyrus.

Back to the drawing (a.k.a., "sucking up") board.

-J

 

[Misotu]

The problem was all the Civs cast their vote based on the Diplomacy you had with them at the precise instance of the RL DV ballot.

Well, and that is clearly true. But the thing is that I thought the fix to prevent a player switching to the AP religion after the DV was called and being able to self-vote would *also* enable diplomatic improvements as a result of tech-trading. In the sense that my understanding was that the AI votes *were not cast* immediately ... thus nerfing a religion change. But that clearly isn't right.

Be sure to get Alphabet 2-4 turns before the RL DV ballot:

Well ... hang on. Not saying you're wrong but ... if I had just held off one turn before spreading the AP religion, wouldn't the result have been different? If I had had alphabet on turn x, then traded and got Hattie & Ramesses up to +9 and +10 respectively on turn x, then spread the religion on turn x so that the DV was called on turn x+1, are you saying that it *still* wouldn't work?

This seems ... illogical?

 

[Misotu]

I prefer 2 grassland gems to hill gems/gold. Sure you get the extra from the hill mines, but if you are chopping the Oracle and TAP, then the additional are worth about as much as the extra population from growing first vs. building a worker first (i.e. it's all in your mind).

You might be right, but with my strategy I have never even got close to a pre-1500BC finish with gems. Gold, yes. Three times. Failed due to stupidity in each case.

I think that to do it with gems you'd have to have a seriously great start rather than just the bare minimum 1 good food, 2 gold plus a reasonable quantity of forest.

I still say gems don't cut it

 

[Mesix]

I just improved my personal best by about 100 years. I will probably still be in the bottom tiers of the Gauntlet. Two problems that prevented this game from being better. TAP was delayed 11 turns due to lack of forests (Zara settled near me and his culture took 4 forest tiles that I was planning to chop). Ramses spread TAP religion to all his cities and abstained during the first vote at +7 diplo. I had gifted him three resources and four techs and he still had no bonus for gifts/fair trade until after the first vote. He came along for the win on the second vote, but that was like 400 years later.

 

[Mesix]

Here is a picture of the best start that I have gotten. I managed to mess it up. I settled on the Ivory resource to get 2 Gems and 1 Gold in my BFC. Tech rate was fast, but I wasn't able to finish the AP fast enough. I used the 2 city strategy, but I didn't build enough workers to chop the AP in a timely manner. I did win on the 1st election, but it was rather late (I didn't improve on my bet time and it is cettainly not competative).

Spoiler :

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well ... hang on. Not saying you're wrong but ... if I had just held off one turn before spreading the AP religion, wouldn't the result have been different? If I had had alphabet on turn x, then traded and got Hattie & Ramesses up to +9 and +10 respectively on turn x, then spread the religion on turn x so that the DV was called on turn x+1, are you saying that it *still* wouldn't work?

This seems ... illogical?

What you said above is correct. However, ...

Having Alphabet on turn x is different from completing Research of Alphabet on turn x. When one completes the Research of a Technology on turn x, one can't use that Technology until turn x+1.

This is simply how Technologies are completed via Research Beakers in the Game. It works the same for building Units, Building, and Wonders from Hammers. None of them can be used until the turn after they are completed.

Example: You have 1 Beaker of Alphabet left to Research on turn x. You press the Red Button to End your Turn and all the City calculations for turn x occurs and you get at least one Beaker and Alphabet Research completes at the end of turn x. You can use Alphabet on turn x+1.

This was confusing to me at first. At the beginning of each turn, you get notices about what happened on the previous turn, and if you don't look close at the dates, you may think the things reported happened in the current turn when they actually happened in the previous turn.

However, trading a Technology would be different. You can use a Technology you got in trade on the same turn as the trade, but you can't Trade the Technology you got until the following turn. (I did not consider that Alphabet could be traded for, since it rarely is available from other Civs in Deity RL DV games that are Won early.)

Note again that Player initiated trades in the RL DV Ballot turn always occur after the Ballot. Let's define the RL DV turn to be x+2. To affect Diplomacy for the RL DV Ballot, the Player must make the (loopsided) trades in turn x+1. By the argument made at the beginning of this message, Alphabet had to be researched in turn x in order to be used in turn x+1 so it can affect the RL DV Ballot at the beginning of turn x+2. So, this is why Alphabet must be researched (completed) at least 2 turns before the RL DV Ballot.

Sun Tzu Wu