G-Minor 70

[Mesix]

What is the recommended tech path? I have been playing as Bismark, and researching...

Myst
Poly
Priest (start Oracle)
Writing
Masonry
Mono (finish Oracle)
Theocracy (slingshot)
BW

Using this path with a 2 gem (or gold...I've tried both) and food start the best time that I would have had is about 1200 BC. I have not finished this early due to bad luck (DOW by Hatty one time, failed to spread religion with TWO missionaries another, etc.), but based on my tech and build rate, 1200 BC is about the optimum time with my current strategy unless goodie huts give key techs.

Would it be better to tech to Alpha after writing and trade for the other techs?

 

[WastinTime]

You need BW earlier so you can chop 15-20 forests.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What is the recommended tech path? I have been playing as Bismark, and researching...

Myst
Poly
Priest (start Oracle)
Writing
Masonry
Mono (finish Oracle)
Theocracy (slingshot)
BW

As WastinTime mentioned, you want Bronze Working earlier. I would say first. And you also want to maximum time sharing Organized Religion with Ramesses II or Hatshepsut, so Masonry and Monotheism should come before Writing and even before Preisthood. In my games, either Ramesses II or Hatshepsut complete Monotheism before I do and adopt Organized Religion and becomes my main ally in winning the RL DV vote. (The other of these two Civs seems to avoid Monotheism as is usual with the AIs and Religion founding Technologies.)

Here's the technology path I've been using for this Gauntlet:

[Mining] staring Tech for both Bismarck and Qin Shi Huang
Bronze Working
Mysticism
Polytheism
Masonry
Monotheism
Priesthood (start The Oracle; finish with Forest chops when Writing is completed)
Writing (this late means getting at most +1 Diplomacy for Open Borders)
Complete The Oracle for Theology
Alphabet (If research rate is high enough, it can be finished just before the RL DV vote)

Using this path with a 2 gem (or gold...I've tried both) and food start the best time that I would have had is about 1200 BC. I have not finished this early due to bad luck (DOW by Hatty one time, failed to spread religion with TWO missionaries another, etc.), but based on my tech and build rate, 1200 BC is about the optimum time with my current strategy unless goodie huts give key techs.

Bismarck can use Deer as Food (+4F), but Qin Shi Huang can use irrigated Corn (+6F), so the advantage of Bismarck's Expansive trait is partially negated via much slower City Growth plus more excess food (+6F vs. +4F) is available for building Workers when playing Qin Shi Huang versus playing Bismarck.

City Population of 3 with 2 Gold and Deer (Bismarck) or Corn (Qin) is optimal. When replacing Gold with Gems, one should have a 4 Population City with the fourth Citizen on a 3H tile to make up for the lack of Hammers in Gems Mines versus Gold Mines. Or the Gems should be on Grassland Hills with a Population 3 City (it should grow eventually though with its excess Food).

Would it be better to tech to Alpha after writing and trade for the other techs?

I doubt it. Rarely will any Opponent have a Technology you need. Research Alphabet after completing The Oracle.

You will be giving Technologies away or trade for a Tech not everyone has and give it to everyone. If you give/trade enough Technology yo get a +1 Shared Technology Diplomatic bonus.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

Bismarck can use Deer as Food (+4F), but Qin Shi Huang can use irrigated Corn (+6F), so the advantage of Bismarck's Expansive trait is partially negated via much slower City Growth plus more excess food (+6F vs. +4F) is available for building Workers when playing Qin Shi Huang versus playing Bismarck.

City Population of 3 with 2 Gold and Deer (Bismarck) or Corn (Qin) is optimal. When replacing Gold with Gems, one should have a 4 Population City with the fourth Citizen on a 3H tile to make up for the lack of Hammers in Gems Mines versus Gold Mines. Or the Gems should be on Grassland Hills with a Population 3 City (it should grow eventually though with its excess Food).
Sun Tzu Wu

The Deer is often on a forest, and if you use Boreal, you can should plan to find one on plains/forest, so the 4F+2H is the same as corn's 6F when building workers. I agree though that you have the problem of the turns it takes to grow with only 4F.

There are several other starting resources and city sizes that can work. I had a Pig, Sheep, 2gold game that finished 1600BC. That grew to size 5. My latest (probably last) submission, pre-1600, was really odd. 2 cow, 2 gold, size 4. A grass/cow is the same as a deer/plains/forest...except you can't chop it later

I do have one idea I want to try with gems yet, so I may submit again.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I just won a Boreal with Bismarck. I'm not a fan of the map. It was even worse than my 365BC which is now in last place

At least that's all my map types ticked off for QM. Need to do a few more for EQM. 11 civs to go for QM. Still need a time win but I can do that on warlord level since I haven't got a game with that difficulty.

EDIT: Worst thing about playing Bismarck on Boreal is he has invisible borders because the snowy trees make it hard to see them. Also, Mehmed and Zara were in the game and they both have very similar green borders which aren''t as invisible as Germany's but they are almost as bad

 

[WastinTime]

Boreal can be fun. You need at least 4 workers, probably 5 with Bismarck. You can build the AP in just a couple turns. Don't forget only hammers count for the 25% bonus Bis gets, so you need a plains/hill to settle on and a deer/forest/plains (2F+2H). That'll supercharge your start.
Oh, and you need at least one of your gems to be non-forested.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Gems? I just played the first start I got 4 tundra deer, 1 beaver, and 2 tundra wheat (never researched agriculture).

I can't be bothered running mapfinder or regenerating constantly, I like the challenge I guess. I'll try and improve my last place a bit however

 

[WastinTime]

That map is littered with gems. You don't need mapfinder. Just regen manually a couple times.

 

[Ozbenno]

Knocked out an EQM buster with Stalin on lakes for 550BC (good for 10th spot so far). I'll try and improve with Qin I think.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I just won a Boreal with Bismarck. I'm not a fan of the map. It was even worse than my 365BC which is now in last place

At least that's all my map types ticked off for QM. Need to do a few more for EQM. 11 civs to go for QM. Still need a time win but I can do that on warlord level since I haven't got a game with that difficulty.

EDIT: Worst thing about playing Bismarck on Boreal is he has invisible borders because the snowy trees make it hard to see them. Also, Mehmed and Zara were in the game and they both have very similar green borders which aren''t as invisible as Germany's but they are almost as bad

If you play a game as Darius against the three american leaders then you end up with a duplicate colour scheme with one of them. Not only are the borders the same colour, but if you share a border with them, the display merges them together with no delineation, making territorial control impossible to determine to by looking at it

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Deer is often on a forest, and if you use Boreal, you can should plan to find one on plains/forest, so the 4F+2H is the same as corn's 6F when building workers. I agree though that you have the problem of the turns it takes to grow with only 4F.

Yes, but you can't chop that Forest without going from 4F2H to 4F1H. Chances are you can't reasonably horde such a Forest, unless you have 15+ Forests total in your BFC.

There are several other starting resources and city sizes that can work. I had a Pig, Sheep, 2gold game that finished 1600BC. That grew to size 5. My latest (probably last) submission, pre-1600, was really odd. 2 cow, 2 gold, size 4. A grass/cow is the same as a deer/plains/forest...except you can't chop it later

Yes, but I meant the City size that can support one Corn Farm or one Deer Camp and two Gold Mines (or two Gems Mines and 1-2 other Tiles) and at which one spams Workers and the City can't grow.

Of course there are many ways to manage a City ... some more or less better than others ...

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Boreal can be fun. You need at least 4 workers, probably 5 with Bismarck. You can build the AP in just a couple turns. Don't forget only hammers count for the 25% bonus Bis gets, so you need a plains/hill to settle on and a deer/forest/plains (2F+2H). That'll supercharge your start.
Oh, and you need at least one of your gems to be non-forested.

The Boreal map has more gotcha's than you suggest:

1) The vast majority of the Tiles are Tundra, which has at best 1F unimproved.
2) Improved Deer on Tundra are only 4F and with a Forest 4F1H.
3) Workers take 1 or 2 more turns to Chop a Forest on Tundra than on Grass or Plains.
4) Improved Hill Gems on Boreal are exactly like Gold Mines on most other Map types, except one less Commerce on Boreal; No Food on Gems Hills with the Boreal Map.
5) Boreal seems to have fewer Rivers that provide an extra Commerce to Gems tiles when any Forest there is chopped.
6) Gems on Tundra have 1H less than Gems on Plains.
7) The vast majority of Gems Tiles have a Forest which must be chopped to construct a Mine and delays construction of a Mine by at least 5 turns on Epic speed.

Boreal just has too much Tundra that damages most otherwise good starts.

I suppose the advantage of Bismarck's Expensive trait can compensate for the extra Chopping required for Foreats on Tundra tiles, by being able to build five Workers for the price of four. However, unless one has an unusual number of Grassland and Plains types, I don't see a net gain here.

Where's the Fun or Advantage in playing a Boreal Map? Boreal does have about 50% more Forests than its nearest competitor Map, namely Pangaea. It does have ample Deer tiles and quite adequate Gems quantities. However, it is ruined by Tundra, few Rivers, Low Food Gems and no Gold. Where's the Fun or Real Advantage in playing a Boreal Map?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

The extra forests are an advantage of Boreal. Even if they chop slower on tundra. If you chop out the AP as fast as possible and run out of forests, you're screwed. You need several more forests, even if they're just outside your 3rd border expansion. Without them, you will not get your missionaries out fast enough.

So many good pang, terra maps (like corn,gold,gold) are wasted without the proper number of forests. So it's nice to be pretty much guaranteed that almost any Boreal start will have enough forests. One less thing to worry about. Deer are pretty much a guarantee too, so just set the mapfinder to find 2 gems.

 

[WastinTime]

Keep in mind, I'm just saying Boreal can be a fun change. It's not the best for this gauntlet. You listed several points that make it less than ideal, but forgot the biggest one. At small size (and certainly larger sizes), you start to get a problem with missionary movement. All those forests can be too much on Epic speed to get thru in time for the vote.

 

[Aerinon]

Thanks for all the tips, guys.

This is a fun gauntlet. Even if I can't figure out how to pull the vote off. I've tried many times. Any start I get that has two mining/commerce resources I can pull off the Oracle whether or not I go for AH.

Here's my parameters:
Civ: Qin
Map: Pangea (though I'm tempted to run mapfinder on Boreal given WastinTime's tips)
Opponents: Hatty, Rams, Zara, Roos (though I might start trying out Ghandi instead now.)
Start: a least 2 of gold/silver/gems. I seem to find 2 gold starts easiest on Pangea. And a food resource.

Builds: Worker -> Warrior -> Warrior -> Worker -> Worker (I've exchanged the 2nd worker and warrior before without much noticable effect) Oracle -> AP -> Missionaries*

1st Worker: Farm/Pasture on food, Mine, Mine, start pre chopping forests unless there's another resource

I've tried two techs paths:

1. BW -> Masonry -> Myst -> Poly -> Mono (revolt to OR) -> PH -> Writing (Open Borders)-> Alpha

Last time this got me Oracle around t79 and AP at around t97 (i know, not enough forests on that start, I saved a couple for missionaries)

2. AH -> Writing (Open Borders) -> BW -> Myst -> Poly -> PH -> Masonry -> Mono (revolt religion and OR at the same time) -> Alpha

Best I've gotten the Oracle here is t75, I think. Sometimes I forgo a 3rd worker and 2nd warrior in exchange for a library which seems to help the Mason, Mono research time while building the Oracle.

But what frustrates me the most is the vote. In-game scores were as follows in my last attempt:

Hatty +9, Rams +9, Zara +7, Roos +6. I didn't expect Roos to vote, but they all abstained! Is there something basic I'm missing here? I thought the threshold was at +7 for all but Zara who's threshold is at +6. Is there some random chance still? Does missing the first victory vote hurt at all? This particular vote happened around 900BC because no less than three missionaries failed to spread the religion and the vote only happened because there was some random spread to the civs I needed.

Well, thanks for any help you can give.

 

[oyzar]

Switch to nsr, sounds like they still have massive negatives with you... in NSR you would avoid that...

 

[Aerinon]

A question that may have to do with what I'm experiencing:

Does revolting to no state religion on the turn the vote comes up have no effect? Meaning the AI made it's decision when the pop-up came up instead of on their turn after the player's vote? That could explain the abstains in that last vote. The vote came up unexpectedly as I didn't think all AI had the religion yet, and I rushed to switch religion for better attitude. I guess trading on that turn would also have no effect if this is the case.

 

[Mesix]

Yes...once the vote dialog box pops up, the vots are cast by all players based on their relations on that turn. You can exploit this by switching from the dominant faith (or NSR) to the AP faith after you have cast your ballot for yourself. All the votes are cast based on the relationships on the turn of the vote. The vote totals are tallied on the following turn. If a city population increases between turns, the vote count will change. Running the AP faith doubles a player's vote based on population.

 

[Mesix]

I think I am going to throw my F@%^ing laptop out a window!

I am sick of my computer crashing all the time. I have decided not to attempt any crash recovery (not even after only one crash) since it is not likely to be accepted even with the new policy.

My game crashed 2 times at work last night, at least one of them costing me a competative win on this Gauntlet. It just crashed on turn 89 when I was about 4 turns away from finishing the AP.

I tried a little different strategy this time. I got an Oasis, HP Gold, and Corn (not irrigated). The settler was on a PH tile too so I got +1 . With only one Gold mine, I didn't have much of a chance, but I found another Gold nearby. After building my initial worker, I built a warrior to grow and then chopped a 2nd worker and a settler (this was the change). I settled near the 2nd gold and used that city to chop the Oracle. City #2 was the holy city for Judism and Christianity. This allowed me to save (and prechop a few) forests in my capital for the AP. After the oracle was finished (a bit late) on about turn 74ish, my army of five workers split up with 4 chopping the AP and the other one chopping Missionaries out of city #2. I was on pace to finish the AP on turn 93-95 (I hadn't dome my micromanaging math on the remaining forests, but I think they were worth about 100-110 in the next 4 turns) when the game crashed!

This game might not have gotten me a first place (as if that is possible with the retired Wasting Time continually beating his own records), but it would have improved my best finish so far on this Gauntlet and also knocked out another leader and map for my Diety EQM.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A question that may have to do with what I'm experiencing:

Does revolting to no state religion on the turn the vote comes up have no effect? Meaning the AI made it's decision when the pop-up came up instead of on their turn after the player's vote? That could explain the abstains in that last vote. The vote came up unexpectedly as I didn't think all AI had the religion yet, and I rushed to switch religion for better attitude. I guess trading on that turn would also have no effect if this is the case.

You may want to convert to No State Religion 0-1 turns after completing TAP.

I don't like making any changes on the turn of the RL DV vote, unless required to Win.

Sun Tzu Wu