G-Minor 70

[Misotu]

who is darn? Are anyone playing with other opponents than zara ramsses ghandi and hatty?

Yes, I am. I found that Gandhi kept getting to Monotheism first, with the result that Ram/Hattie (one or in some cases both) didn't research the tech and didn't get into that civic early enough. So I switched out Gandhi for Roosevelt, who is neutral in my book. Doesn't vote for me but doesn't cause trouble.

 

[Misotu]

You may want to convert to No State Religion 0-1 turns after completing TAP.

Well, maybe. But I don't do this. I convert after building the 3rd missionary. That way I am in the AP religion for the leader vote and no religion for the diplo victory vote, but I haven't held up building the missionaries in the process.

 

[WastinTime]

Well, maybe. But I don't do this. I convert after building the 3rd missionary. That way I am in the AP religion for the leader vote and no religion for the diplo victory vote, but I haven't held up building the missionaries in the process.

That's exactly what I do. You'd be taking an unnecessary gamble if you switch to NSR before the leader vote. If TAP religion autospreads, you could lose that vote. (slim chance, but why risk it?)

Like you said, it's best to get missionaries on the road first, unless you know they have a very short trip.

 

[unclethrill]

I think I am going to throw my F@%^ing laptop out a window!

I am sick of my computer crashing all the time. I have decided not to attempt any crash recovery (not even after only one crash) since it is not likely to be accepted even with the new policy.

My game crashed 2 times at work last night, at least one of them costing me a competative win on this Gauntlet. It just crashed on turn 89 when I was about 4 turns away from finishing the AP.

I tried a little different strategy this time. I got an Oasis, HP Gold, and Corn (not irrigated). The settler was on a PH tile too so I got +1 . With only one Gold mine, I didn't have much of a chance, but I found another Gold nearby. After building my initial worker, I built a warrior to grow and then chopped a 2nd worker and a settler (this was the change). I settled near the 2nd gold and used that city to chop the Oracle. City #2 was the holy city for Judism and Christianity. This allowed me to save (and prechop a few) forests in my capital for the AP. After the oracle was finished (a bit late) on about turn 74ish, my army of five workers split up with 4 chopping the AP and the other one chopping Missionaries out of city #2. I was on pace to finish the AP on turn 93-95 (I hadn't dome my micromanaging math on the remaining forests, but I think they were worth about 100-110 in the next 4 turns) when the game crashed!

This game might not have gotten me a first place (as if that is possible with the retired Wasting Time continually beating his own records), but it would have improved my best finish so far on this Gauntlet and also knocked out another leader and map for my Diety EQM.

Linux Man. I almost never have a crash. In the time it took you to write that message, I finished another leader and map on the way to Deity EQM.

 

[Mesix]

My finish dates aren't getting any better. I can get TAP finished by an acceptable target date (about turn 88), but I never win on the first vote when I finish TAP that early.

Well, I knocked out a couple more leaders and maps for my Diety EQM. None of my finishes are competative for the Gauntlet, but I'm almost done with the Industrius leaders and ready to move onto Philosophical leaders. I've almost finished the single landmass map types also. Maybe I'll start rolling up some Fractal and Iceage maps in hopes of landing the single landmass version after a few tries.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Hey, at least you aren't last place like me

I even posted a strategy article to encourage worse finish dates than my own

 

[Mesix]

No, I'm currently 12 out of 13. The light at the end of the tunnel is just an oncoming train.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yes...once the vote dialog box pops up, the vots are cast by all players based on their relations on that turn. You can exploit this by switching from the dominant faith (or NSR) to the AP faith after you have cast your ballot for yourself. All the votes are cast based on the relationships on the turn of the vote. The vote totals are tallied on the following turn. If a city population increases between turns, the vote count will change. Running the AP faith doubles a player's vote based on population.

I thought that BtS 3.17 fixed that bug. Isn't the Vote Canceled due to irregularities?

I suppose I'm wrong about this since I had an Opponent that converted to the TAP Religion right after the Votes were cast, instantly doubling his votes.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yes, I am. I found that Gandhi kept getting to Monotheism first, with the result that Ram/Hattie (one or in some cases both) didn't research the tech and didn't get into that civic early enough. So I switched out Gandhi for Roosevelt, who is neutral in my book. Doesn't vote for me but doesn't cause trouble.

I haven't lost The Oracle yet in this Gauntlet to Gandhi. My only loss of The Oracle occurred when Hatshepsut completed it on turn 70 (2250 BC).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

That's exactly what I do. You'd be taking an unnecessary gamble if you switch to NSR before the leader vote. If TAP religion autospreads, you could lose that vote. (slim chance, but why risk it?)

Like you said, it's best to get missionaries on the road first, unless you know they have a very short trip.

Like I said before, I convert to No State Religion in 0 turns or 1 turn after completing The Apostolic Palace. The decision is based on the risk when the RL DV Votes are Cast (0 turns) or later (1 turn after the votes are Cast; the turn are the Vote Results are Announced).

There's no need to delay converting to No State Religion, unless you build a Missionary every turn. My Workers keep Chopping through Anarchy, so only the Hammer tiles are idle in Anarchy. I try to build Missionaries in 2-3 turns, so Anarchy in the first turn of a Missionary build never worries me much.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[oyzar]

I usually run out of forests by the time i am building missionaries as such every turn in anarchy is one turn slower laster missionary. Like others i often convert after the last missionary is out.

 

[unclethrill]

Lately I have been building the missionaries (all but 1 before I build the palace. That way I don't get stuck one short and miss the first election. Of course, my dates for finishing are right in the middle of the pack so my advice may not be worth much.

 

[Mesix]

I thought that BtS 3.17 fixed that bug. Isn't the Vote Canceled due to irregularities?

I suppose I'm wrong about this since I had an Opponent that converted to the TAP Religion right after the Votes were cast, instantly doubling his votes.

Sun Tzu Wu

BTS 3.17 will cancel the vote if changing to TAP religion (doubling your votes) will put you over the self vote threshold. In previous versions, this was an easy way to win TAP VC...you spread the religion to a small AI city for each player and had enough votes by yourself to win the game.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I usually run out of forests by the time i am building missionaries as such every turn in anarchy is one turn slower laster missionary. Like others i often convert after the last missionary is out.

Extra Forests are required to Chop Missionaries:

Be sure to have 15-17 Forests in the BFC of your Capital. Ideally, you will have a Food (Corn, Wheat, Rice or Deer) resource, two Mining (Gems or Gold) resources and 17 Forests in your 20 tile BFC (excluding the City tile).

Also look for up to 16 Forests in the 16 tiles of Ring 3 around your BFC. These are 16H outside your Culture and 24H inside your Culture at Epic speed. Ring 3 is covered when your Culture exceeds 150 at Epic speed. This will happen in 75 turns without any Culture beyond the Palace's +2 Cpt. The Oracle (+8 Cpt) greatly accelerates the Culture rate to at least +10 Cpt. Don't Chop Ring 3 Forests until your Culture covers them to get the Maximum Hammer yield (24H at Epic speed) without Mathematics.

Use MapFinder and sort your Maps by clicking on the ANY Forest icon in the icon row of the Civ4 Map Finder application, used to select the Map you want to Play.

If you still can't find enough Forests, use a Boreal Map. It has a Forest density that is 50% greater than the second best Map in this regard, Pangaea. Boreal's disadvantages are:

1) It may be difficult to move Missionaries quickly through Forests without Roads. 1 tile per turn through dense Forests.
2) The majority of tiles are Tundra which is -1F and about +33% more Chopping turns to complete a Forest Chop.
3) There are others (mentioned in one of my previous posts), but these two are the major ones.

To compensate for these disadvantages, one could Chop a Missionary before completing The Apostolic Palace. There should be enough time to Chop the remaining two Missionaries after TAP is completed.

Relative timing of Alphabet completion and the RL DV vote casting turn:

It can be important to delay TAP a few turns to ensure you get Alphabet a few turns before the first RL DV comes up, 14 turns after completing TAP at Epic speed. There aren't many things worse than getting Alphabet on the turn that RL DV are cast or later.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

BTS 3.17 will cancel the vote if changing to TAP religion (doubling your votes) will put you over the self vote threshold. In previous versions, this was an easy way to win TAP VC...you spread the religion to a small AI city for each player and had enough votes by yourself to win the game.

Mesix, thanks for this clarification. I wasn't aware that switching to the TAP Religion on the RL DV vote casting turn was still legal. So, one just needs to ensure that by doubling one's Votes by converting to TAP Religion, one's own number of Votes is NOT 75% or more of the Total aka "Self Voting" the RL DV.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Miraculix]

I am wondering whether people build one or two cities for this Gauntlet. Certainly not more than two? If one decides to build only one city, does it make any difference whether OCC is checked or not?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I am wondering whether people build one or two cities for this Gauntlet. Certainly not more than two? If one decides to build only one city, does it make any difference whether OCC is checked or not?

For minimum Win Date (Win Turn No.), one should build only the Capital City. In the Time and Hammers it takes to build just one Settler (149H), nearly all three required TAP Religion Missionaries can be built (3 x 60 = 180). The Mathematics of this Choice seem to allow just one Optimal answer. The Win date of any two City Strategy is likely to be inferior to any viable single City Strategy due just to the additional Hammers that would be required to build a Settler. Any Two City Strategy would almost certainly never catch up by the Win Date of the best Single City Strategy.

[EDIT]
It doesn't matter that this Gauntlet is Epic speed either. The same would be true for a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory on a single land mass at Quick, Normal and Marathon speeds. The cost of building a Settler is just too high in terms of turns, Hammers and excess Food spent in building it.

One could have the OCC checked, but there is no advantage in doing so. There isn't time to build even a single National Wonder and certainly not enough for 3-5 National Wonders.
[end EDIT]

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

For minimum Win Date (Win Turn No.), one should build only the Capital City. In the Time and Hammers it takes to build just one Settler (149H), nearly all three required TAP Religion Missionaries can be built (3 x 60 = 180). The Mathematics of this Choice seem to allow just one Optimal answer. The Win date of any two City Strategy is likely to be inferior to any viable single City Strategy due just to the additional Hammers that would be required to build a Settler. Any Two City Strategy would almost certainly never catch up by the Win Date of the best Single City Strategy.

[EDIT]
It doesn't matter that this Gauntlet is Epic speed either. The same would be true for a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory on a single land mass at Quick, Normal and Marathon speeds. The cost of building a Settler is just too high in terms of turns, Hammers and excess Food spent in building it.

One could have the OCC checked, but there is no advantage in doing so. There isn't time to build even a single National Wonder and certainly not enough for 3-5 National Wonders.
[end EDIT]

Sun Tzu Wu

I agree completely but the funny part is that my best date was with 2 cities and my best one city date was 200 years later. I plan to fix that this weekend though. I have lots of MF files to run through now.

 

[Misotu]

I haven't lost The Oracle yet in this Gauntlet to Gandhi. My only loss of The Oracle occurred when Hatshepsut completed it on turn 70 (2250 BC).

Sun Tzu Wu

Crossed-lines here maybe? I don't exclude Gandhi because he builds the Oracle first. I exclude him because he seems to be much better at the religion game than Hattie or Ramesses. He always got either Hindu/Budd followed by Mono in my games - which meant that Hattie//Ramesses didn't seem to research it so early. This meant they switched to OR later, which reduced the bonus I was getting for sharing civics.

The other disadvantage I was finding was that there seemed to be many more "worst enemy" problems when I was including 3 religion-focused civs in the game.
My games just seem to go better without him.

How many workers are people building generally? I have only usually built either 2 or 3, but I'm starting to suspect that I need more workers and more forest for a really good result reading what you are saying about the number of forests required for the ideal game! I suppose the plan would be to chop the workers and still have loads of forest left which can then be speedily chopped by droves of workers ...

 

[Misotu]

I am wondering whether people build one or two cities for this Gauntlet. Certainly not more than two? If one decides to build only one city, does it make any difference whether OCC is checked or not?

I only ever build one city for religious games. I used to wonder whether it was better to found 2 - 1 to build the AP and 1 to churn out missionaries, but I'm convinced that this does not work anything like so well. The maths just doesn't add up.

I don't usually turn on OCC though, because I have very occasionally flipped an AI city, which is always a help when it comes to the vote ...