Game balance and AI

[Koshling]

I just said 'yes' to the restart prompt. How do you do it to make it work? Also, what is the error message saying is being ignored?

Not sure on the error message.

I do it by having dirctory joins (the mklink thing) for all names I have ever encountered. I also have (comemnted out) lines in my INI file for all names I have ever seen, and when I want to load an unusual one I edit the commenting (ie - delete and add a semicolon at the start of lines to chnage which are active) in my INI file.

 

[ls612]

Not sure on the error message.

I do it by having dirctory joins (the mklink thing) for all names I have ever encountered. I also have (comemnted out) lines in my INI file for all names I have ever seen, and when I want to load an unusual one I edit the commenting (ie - delete and add a semicolon at the start of lines to chnage which are active) in my INI file.

So it needs to be done in the INI, even with directory joins?

 

[Koshling]

So it needs to be done in the INI, even with directory joins?

If you want the game to start up in the right mod, yes. If it starts in the wrong mod (relative to the save file) then there is nothing you can do apart from restart it via the dialog the save gives you (which takea a long time if you are loading it several times to try different things)

 

[BlueGenie]

I have multiple shortcuts instead. One for my solo games I want to carry on with in an earlier version (currently a v23 one), one for the SVN game where I'm testing out stuff, and one for the version we play for multiplayer games.
I take it multiple shortcuts would work with the mklink too.

So I have these shortcuts set up:
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2Cosmosv23
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2Cosmos
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2CosmosMP

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

I have multiple shortcuts instead. One for my solo games I want to carry on with in an earlier version (currently a v23 one), one for the SVN game where I'm testing out stuff, and one for the version we play for multiplayer games.
I take it multiple shortcuts would work with the mklink too.

So I have these shortcuts set up:
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2Cosmosv23
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2Cosmos
"G:\CivIV\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Caveman2CosmosMP

Cheers

This should work

 

[Talin2009]

I will post savegame tomorrow. I am into Reneissance now and i like balance - i am on top, but close to AIs, and really have to struggle for it.

I am 6th on territory size, cannot expand because of maintenance. Just used 3 merchants in a row to research Banking, Usury, Printing Press - once i build banks in all cities i can turn research to 100% again (had to keep it 80-90%).

2 more minor AI glitches so far - haven't noticed AI to use GP to discover tech, and AI worker behavior - after i discovered mountaineering they built some mines, then sat in cities not building more so i have to manually build those mines on peaks (i turned auto build windmill off).

 

[ls612]

I will post savegame tomorrow. I am into Reneissance now and i like balance - i am on top, but close to AIs, and really have to struggle for it.

I am 6th on territory size, cannot expand because of maintenance. Just used 3 merchants in a row to research Banking, Usury, Printing Press - once i build banks in all cities i can turn research to 100% again (had to keep it 80-90%).

2 more minor AI glitches so far - haven't noticed AI to use GP to discover tech, and AI worker behavior - after i discovered mountaineering they built some mines, then sat in cities not building more so i have to manually build those mines on peaks (i turned auto build windmill off).

Two questions.

1. Are you using V24 or the SVN?

2. Are you still using Slavery/Patrician, or have you switched one or both of those?

 

[Koshling]

My latest test game is much more competitive. The AI is definitely hunting effectively now, and I'm finding it harder to catch up than before, though once I got atl atls i was able to rush and wipe the local barbarian cities fairly easily ( AI still sucks at military tactics). Despite this though, the other actual AI civs are all ahead of me in tech and mostly in size and score a little before sedentary lifestyle (so end of prehistoric).

The negative traits are significant too. I was unlucky enough to draw 'excessive' which is minus two health. Since I am playing on diety that meant my size one capital had minus five health at the start! Despite rushing herbalism I (so far anyway) never got the expermintal herbs event that usually gives you two extra health fairly easily. I also got a tornado demolishing my rabbit hunting camp twice on the same tile shortly after I rebuilt it the first time!!

 

[ls612]

My latest test game is much more competitive. The AI is definitely hunting effectively now, and I'm finding it harder to catch up than before, though once I got atl atls i was able to rush and wipe the local barbarian cities fairly easily ( AI still sucks at military tactics). Despite this though, the other actual AI civs are all ahead of me in tech and mostly in size and score a little before sedentary lifestyle (so end of prehistoric).

The negative traits are significant too. I was unlucky enough to draw 'excessive' which is minus two health. Since I am playing on diety that meant my size one capital had minus five health at the start! Despite rushing herbalism I (so far anyway) never got the expermintal herbs event that usually gives you two extra health fairly easily. I also got a tornado demolishing my rabbit hunting camp twice on the same tile shortly after I rebuilt it the first time!!

Are you noticing the AIs making gigantic SODs in the Prehistoric Era and then leaving them a square or two from their city? I've noticed that since V18 or something, and I suspect that might be gimping the AI performance.

 

[draz]

Are you noticing the AIs making gigantic SODs in the Prehistoric Era and then leaving them a square or two from their city? I've noticed that since V18 or something, and I suspect that might be gimping the AI performance.

Yeah the inuits are doing just that in my current game:

http://i.imgur.com/ZNt7e.jpg

I can only imagine what other stacks are hiding beyond my hunter's vision.

The thing is, they'd have no problems taking over my cities - 20'ish tiles away - on that continent (as soon as I noticed those I started churning out new units in my capital, but I still need to move those to the cities by boats) but they seem to be content just hanging out there instead. This is on deity difficulty with ruthless AI btw - I dunno what triggers the AI to try an invasion, but I'd say it could use a bit of a boost.

 

[ls612]

Yeah the inuits are doing just that in my current game:

http://i.imgur.com/ZNt7e.jpg

I can only imagine what other stacks are hiding beyond my hunter's vision.

The thing is, they'd have no problems taking over my cities - 20'ish tiles away - on that continent (as soon as I noticed those I started churning out new units in my capital, but I still need to move those to the cities by boats) but they seem to be content just hanging out there instead. This is on deity difficulty with ruthless AI btw - I dunno what triggers the AI to try an invasion, but I'd say it could use a bit of a boost.

Do you have BBAI logging on and set to 3? If so, then check your logs folder and post the BBAI log and a the savegame, that way Koshling can look into the issue.

 

[Koshling]

Do you have BBAI logging on and set to 3? If so, then check your logs folder and post the BBAI log and a the savegame, that way Koshling can look into the issue.

...and if you hacve a save where you KNOW of such an idle attack stack that would also help. My guess is that it has no suitably close by targets, or something, but it should eb easy to diagnose with a save game (AI logs might also be useful but nothing trumps a save game where it is actually happening)

 

[draz]

...and if you hacve a save where you KNOW of such an idle attack stack that would also help. My guess is that it has no suitably close by targets, or something, but it should eb easy to diagnose with a save game (AI logs might also be useful but nothing trumps a save game where it is actually happening)

Here you go, it's from the same turn that the screenshot is from (the stacks seem to be using the city defend AI from what I could gather):

http://www.mediafire.com/?ub57ou95yed4d5a


Edit: The Xiongnu aren't messing around, however (guess they got a bit pissed off after I razed two of their border cities ):

http://i.imgur.com/nZozg.jpg

 

[Talin2009]

Two questions.

1. Are you using V24 or the SVN?

2. Are you still using Slavery/Patrician, or have you switched one or both of those?

1. SVN
2. Once i had Bureacracy available i switched to it, and same with Slavery-Guilds. I usually ignore Coinage civic, as it is too weak - almost no bonuses countered with slavery.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Regarding the discussion in the crime and punishment thread (which as koshling points out doesn't really belong there), I just wanted to log a complaint about the new build times in as constructive a way as possible.

If the slavery civic is spectacularly overpowered to the point that one considers the rational solution to be doubling the cost of everything, maybe the better solution is a serious nerf to slavery instead.

I suggest the following (in full recognition and respect for the right of the modders to do what they want/seems best to them):
1. Reduce the power of slaves to one or two a piece, possibly granting them back with fairly expensive buildings.
2. Don't let citizens be assigned as slaves at all. Instead restrict the in-city slaves to 'settled' slave units. Let civilizations running Slavery 'build' slave units, but upon completion, a city's population is reduced by 1 (like Civ 3 workers).
3. Restrict the number of slaves any city can manage. The easiest thing I think would be some proportion with its current population. Like 1:1 or less. Alternatively, give cities a slave management stat that is increased mildly by appropriate buildings (which if they already are in the game would be made more expensive).
4. I think there's an event for slave riots. This should necessarily result in a decrease in slaves at the city in question, either as a result of quelling the riots or excapes.

Doubling (or near doubling as a later SVN claims to have mildly reduced the new costs) the build costs of everything also hits every single city that is not loaded to the gills with slaves with what are likely unforeseen consequences. I started a game on eternity with a gigantic map last night (size increase just to see what viewports will let me get away with) and looking at these build times, I don't think it's going to be possible to get my trackers out and get cave dwelling built before its expiration without some deliberate avoidance of the tech for quite some time. I think that combination is about the most favorable build to research ratio one can assemble, so I don't know how folks playing at faster speeds are going to manage.

So as not to be all negative, it does seem that making it harder to build nigh everything will necessarily reduce the number of + buildings built, so the mid-Ancient era glut of cash on hand may be reduced. I'll let you know if I get there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Regarding the discussion in the crime and punishment thread (which as koshling points out doesn't really belong there), I just wanted to log a complaint about the new build times in as constructive a way as possible.

If the slavery civic is spectacularly overpowered to the point that one considers the rational solution to be doubling the cost of everything, maybe the better solution is a serious nerf to slavery instead.

I wholeheartedly agree!

I suggest the following (in full recognition and respect for the right of the modders to do what they want/seems best to them):
1. Reduce the power of slaves to one or two a piece, possibly granting them back with fairly expensive buildings.

Agree, 1 hammer is More than enough.

2. Don't let citizens be assigned as slaves at all. Instead restrict the in-city slaves to 'settled' slave units. Let civilizations running Slavery 'build' slave units, but upon completion, a city's population is reduced by 1 (like Civ 3 workers).

Agree.

3. Restrict the number of slaves any city can manage. The easiest thing I think would be some proportion with its current population. Like 1:1 or less. Alternatively, give cities a slave management stat that is increased mildly by appropriate buildings (which if they already are in the game would be made more expensive).

Agree, 2 citizens :1 slave or even 3 c : 1 s

4. I think there's an event for slave riots. This should necessarily result in a decrease in slaves at the city in question, either as a result of quelling the riots or excapes.

Agree, but this is Ori's turf.

Doubling (or near doubling as a later SVN claims to have mildly reduced the new costs) the build costs of everything also hits every single city that is not loaded to the gills with slaves with what are likely unforeseen consequences. I started a game on eternity with a gigantic map last night (size increase just to see what viewports will let me get away with) and looking at these build times, I don't think it's going to be possible to get my trackers out and get cave dwelling built before its expiration without some deliberate avoidance of the tech for quite some time. I think that combination is about the most favorable build to research ratio one can assemble, so I don't know how folks playing at faster speeds are going to manage.

So as not to be all negative, it does seem that making it harder to build nigh everything will necessarily reduce the number of + buildings built, so the mid-Ancient era glut of cash on hand may be reduced. I'll let you know if I get there.

My Epic game seems more like my previous Snail but only more restricted.

In short I'm in total agreement here with Cyrusfan. Excellent points and possible solutions.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

Good post Cyrusfan.
Yes, Slavery, when you are at war and getting a lot of slaves, is very powerful when it comes to production. Very. Too much so indeed. Part of this will be "fixed" when slaves you capture no longer settle as Citizen Specialists but as Settled Slaves as having too many then will put a serious drain on your city's growth. I'd not be able to have the Slaves I have in my cities in the test game I'm running if I lost a food for each, my cities would be starving then, badly.
Even so a reduction of the a Settled Slave gives would probably be needed. A good slaver (contradiction in terms?) would still get 30+ extra in every city as he'd only need 10 settled slaves for 30. Just build more farms to accommodate the extra food costs and you're good to go for some more settled slaves.
So I totally agree that settled slaves should be nerfed down to at least 2, preferably 1.

As for #3 you will be having a restriction on amount of slaves a city can handle by the extra food cost. Simply put if a slaver settles too many slaves in a new city he will gimp his city's growth too much. Over settling slaves could end you up with a permanent pop 1 city. *considers*
Which would be bad actually as that city would never starve down under 1 pop and could have thousands of slaves settled in it and, well, you get the point.

This could tie in with #4 though, if we can pester Ori into creating some anti-slavery events, from losing a few slaves that flee (without disorder) through losing a few more slaves through riots (with disorder) to losing a whole city to slaves overthrowing their masters when the ratio Pop:Slaves is high enough (small chance at 1:2 rising with every increase in ratio) (losing ALL the settled slaves in that city even if you take it back).

Cheers

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd prefer not to nerf too much with anti-slavery events. But I like the idea that the slave revolts may reduce the slave count.

I think to do the following, the idea that slaves shouldn't be assignable sounds fairly rational.

I suggest that slaves should get -3 food (like any other population as this is a 'silent' population count) and +1 unhappiness (its pretty much the sum definition of a sucky life to be a slave.) Since the food cost would be that intensive, I feel that maintaining the +3 hammers sounds just fine. Slaves DO do a lot of work around the place. (in fact, I'm almost thinking it might be a bit weak with the food cost considered).

I also think slaves converted into units should NOT be self-destroying at the end of battles. This makes that use for them come into a little bit more balance with the settling side.

EDIT: On further thought, I think they need -3 food, +2 unhappiness, +1 Unhealth, and perhaps even +5 crime to represent a more discontent silent population counter. Additionally, under this mechanism, they should actually have more production to make them stay worthwhile at all. I'd say +5 or so would do the trick. If they are ever liberated, they should be converted to a population counter rather than being specifically converted to any other specialist type. It'd also be nice if slaving (rushing builds) destroyed extra slaves first rather than immediately dipping into the population.

With this system, you would not need to limit the # of slaves in the city. They would naturally limit themselves by stunting the city's growth.

 

[BlueGenie]

Figuring that slaves are usually given substandard food -2 might be enough, and +2. Making a compromise.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Limiting the number of slaves artificially to a ratio is not a very historic way to go. I prefer th food idea. There are plenty of examples of ratios of 5 slaves or more to one non-slave. Sometimes it was because the difference in living standard was not very great. Other times it was maintained through fear where any non-slave could kill any slave at any time.

If we are going to change slaves then we really do need to consider when slaves were/are used. Currently it is only under the slavery civic but the rest of the civics in that line have also had slavery happening in them.... No I am too ill to continue and we have been through it all before anyway...